2011 Tundra To Adopt New Trailer Towing Standards
Jason Lancaster | Jun 14, 2010 | Comments 173
During the last 20 years, the manufacturer-stated maximum tow capacity of the typical half-ton pickup truck has skyrocketed. Take a look at the increase in maximum tow rating for America’s best-selling pickup, the Ford F-150:
As you can see, the F-150’s towing power has increased by 66% over the last 20 years…or at least that’s what Ford says. If you think about all the electronics and improved efficiency – not to mention dramatic improvements in transmissions – it certainly seems plausible that today’s F-150 is 66% better at pulling than it was 20 years ago.
However, there are a couple of reasons to doubt these numbers:
1. The engines haven’t improved enough to match the increase in tow ratings. The 2010 F-150 has a 5.4L V8 rated at 310 horsepower and 365 lb-ft of torque. The 1990 F-150 had a 5.8L, which was rated at 210 horsepower and 315 lb-ft of torque. While the horsepower increase since 1990 is significant (more than 67%) torque is what gets a trailer moving, and that hasn’t improved more than 15%.
2. The trucks themselves have gotten heavier. The curb weight of a 1990 Ford F-150 Regular Cab was 3,900 lbs. Today, a similar 2010 model weighs in at 4,700 lbs. While Ford has added a lot to the truck in that time (the 2010 is light-years ahead of the 1990 in every conceivable way), those features have come with a weight penalty.
Am I picking on Ford here? Yes and no. Ford certainly has managed to make the F-150 a better tow vehicle since 1990 – that much is certain. However, 66% better? That seems optimistic.
Ford isn’t the only company that’s inflated their tow ratings. Every half-ton truck on the market today has seen tremendous “improvements” in towing capacity without any tremendous powertrain improvements to match.
These two trucks are IDENTICAL, but according to Dodge the one on the right pulls 15% more than the one on the left.
Consider that the 2010 Dodge Ram 1500, which is rated to pull 10,450 lbs, is identical to the 2009 model that was only rated to pull 9,100 lbs. Somehow, Dodge managed to increase towing capacity 15% between 2009 and 2010 after nothing more than a “revision” in their calculations.
All of the evidence tells us that there’s no way of knowing whether Ford, Dodge, Chevy, or Toyota are telling the truth about how much their trucks can safely pull. Obviously, this is a problem.
Finally, Some Tow Rating Standards
As a result of all these dubious trailer tow rating claims, the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) decided to come up with a standard. Known as SAE J2807, this standard is intended to measure all trucks in a way that reflects real-word towing. There are dozens of tests and measurements included in this standard, but here are the three that will really impact tow ratings and consumers. The following quote is from some sales materials sent to Toyota dealers:
- The new standard says that the max tow rating must take into account the average weight of passengers and accessories. This is likely to reduce tow ratings across the board by 300 to 500 lbs (give or take).
- Each half-ton will be required to complete a 40 to 60 mph passing maneuver in 18 seconds or less at their maximum trailer rating.
- Each truck will need to meet some handling and trailer control standards, most of which will probably result in better quality OEM hitches being included in tow packages.
Compliance
Now that all of the auto manufacturers have found a towing standard that they can agree upon, the plan is for manufacturers to begin adhering to the standard testing process by 2013. According to some data uncovered by Mickey, one of our frequent commentors here on TundraHeadquarters.com, Toyota is planning to comply with the new SAE standard on 2011 Tacomas and Tundras – two years ahead of schedule:
Tow ratings for the 2011 Tundra and Tacoma will be revised to comply with the new SAE J2807 guidelines for all truck manufacturers…Until SAE J2807, each truck manufacturer set its own method and standard for establishing tow ratings. This practice was often criticized, especially when automakers increased tow ratings for marketing purposes with no obvious mechanical or power changes [emphasis added]. It made comparing tow ratings very tricky because a fair comparison couldn’t be made…When all vehicles are rated the same way under J2807, then comparing tow ratings will be more accurate…and useful to the customer.
Toyota Taking A Risk By Complying Early
It’s unclear at this point if the Tundra will be able to keep the same trailer tow rating once it’s tested using these new standards. Toyota used the new SAE J2807 standard to test the 2010 4Runner, for example, and the max tow rating between 2009 and 2010 4Runner did not change. However, the engine in the 2010 4Runner has 34 more horsepower and 12 more lb-ft of torque. Based on this fact – and a genuine belief that all half-ton pickup truck tow ratings are over-estimated – it’s our estimation that the Tundra’s tow rating will drop when the 2011 Tundra debuts.
Obviously, this decision to adopt the standard early is risky. If the average consumer doesn’t recognize Toyota is holding the Tundra to a standard that no other manufacturer is adhering to (at least not yet), the Tundra could appear to be weaker than it’s competitors.
What do you think: Will Toyota’s decision to adhere to the new trailer tow rating standards help sales, even if it means a lower maximum tow rating?
Filed Under: Tundra Towing
Tow ratings have always been a mystery. The other item that factors into the tow rating is the truck’s suspension. Most of today’s half-tons can’t get close to pulling their max load due to payload limits, e.g. 2007 Tundra DC payload 1540lbs. That doesnt leave much for fuel weight and the family if the tongue weight is 1100lbs! So how do these engineers pull that tow rating out of their hat??? I had an engineer friend tell my that all tow ratings have a 30% cushion. He works for Ford, so I guess I should believe him…lol. My question would be if they lower the 2011 Tundra ratings, does that mean they’ll adjust the previous 2nd gen Tundra tow ratings?????
You seem to be correct on the weight of the ford and other 1/2 ton trucks gaining substantially in weight, but it still amazes me with the thinner sheet metal being used vs. 1990’s that the weight can increase that much and for what reason is beyond me. Any ideas since I would think for sure the sheet metal is thinner and less of it and more plastic being used in areas and the bumpers I know are thinner than in the 90’s. I also believe the mfg. payload and towing capacities are lower than what they should be. They put such low weight capacities that I’m sure the trucks can handle more no problems. Mfgs. just don’t want to get sued nowadays with all the sue-people happy we have now.
mk, id say maybe its a heavier interior? Im pretty sure the interior of the 1990 F-150 was alot more basic than the 2010 one lol.
You do realize that this is over a year old subject. As for the Rams tow rating, would like to have a company sell you a product then say we where wrong stop doing that. Case in point floor mats oh don’t forget remove your spare tire rust problems, I almost forgot don’t use the tailgate because it buckles, or how about dont drive in the rain because o you air injector pumps, some companies are conservative and error on the side of safety. Some are not. If the tundra is a great tow vehicie why doesn’t it have a factory installed trailer braking system? One that will identify issues with the trailers brake electrical system?
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Anyone who tows knows it isn’t moving the weight its maneuvering and stopping the trailer! So a frame that moves like a wiggle worm under its own weight may not be so good with a additional 10k!
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Why is this website threatened so badly by the competition? The other brands do care what TOYOTA does because it wont be right and will come out in the wash years later. Worry about your own problems!
Greg you’re getting very old in your stupid antics. Do we list every problem Dodge has? When are you going to learn for every article written you come out with the same stuff. I don’t have to go far but across my street to hear a young lady in a Dodge complain about her floor mats constantly moving. I was nice and gave her some advice on who to complain to besides Dodge. All she has to do really is go to the dealership and tell them to fix it or end up the same as Toyota. She said she will try that first. As far as the trailer brake thing Greg, if you need it get it. I don’t try to tow anything near the required use of a brake assist. So why should I pay for it? It’s a nice feature but one I don’t need or use. Greg the only one threatened here is you for some reason. You constantly harp on what we got or don’t have. Your normal Ram owner wouldn’t be on this site complaining the way you do. If you don’t like what’s being said your option my friend. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
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Jason the article I sent helped in this thread.
Mickey you are arguing that you don’t tow the amount of weight required for a trailer brake. Then why did you buy a truck that can tow 10000 lbs? Seems contradicting. Why buy half of a package? If they are not going to complete the package then why not call it a towing package and not include the transmission cooler, some people may not need it! How about the RV wiring connector, may not need that. Your statement that you don’t tow that much so I don’t need it but the fact you bought a 10000lb towing capacity vehicle says everything.
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If you don’t want Dodge brought up don’t include it in the article.
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Part of the SAE standard is the durability of the chassis, correct? If so Toyota has proven they lack in that area, just a fact! Also I guess it would be hard to pass the 40-60mph passing maneuver in the limp mode because of the air pumps, another issue plaguing Tundra’s. But hey why worry you only pointed out how Dodge was on the safety side, Toyota is getting a class on that now complements of the US Government.
Greg-while i dont disagree that RAM has a good product to use for towing, I question your facts concerning the Tundra. I’ve been towing 8800lbs behind my ’07 Tundra for nearly four years and haven’t experienced the wiggle worm problem that you think is going on. As far as brake control, I’m glad Toyota didn’t put their own control in the vehicle. I had the latitude to choose my own brake control…if you know anything about brake control units there are different types that an operator can choose from based upon their needs. So with that said, I don’t consider a brake control the full tow package. BTW Tundra has a plug and play feature when it comes to brake control units. One more thing, Toyota has recognized the induction pump issue. They responded by changing the warranty to 6 years or 70K. Would other Mfgs do the same thing….I highly doubt it.
Greg I know it’s hard for you to understand being a Dodge owner. More people buy trucks and don’t use them for towing. Now to answer you “Because I can”. I have the tow package as well as the cold weather package Greg. Why have the cold weather package? The heavy duty starter Greg. Towing package is there for when I ever decide I want a camper. Like Rich stated I would have the choice in a brake controller, not Toyota’s choice. Can Dodge say that there Greg? no you’re stuck with what you got.
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Greg as for the article no need in explaining that. If you want to play dumb and stupid, then I give go ahead and do so.
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Again Greg you’re attacking some issues and trying to put it into grand statement but you fall short again. Yes it would be true for someone to pass someone else in limp mode. One thing Greg they can still get somewhere as for your truck it’s hard to pass someone when your lower control arm welds comes apart as per recall. So let’s see here the Tundra can still move on straight, left or right in limp mode but when a lower control arm separates you will either do left turns or right turns. I guess you can have your own Nascar race. Now stupid can we get Greg? You want me to list more of your recalls?
Rich in regards to this statement “One more thing, Toyota has recognized the induction pump issue. They responded by changing the warranty to 6 years or 70K Would other Mfgs do the same thing….I highly doubt it.” Of course they recognized this problem, they didn’t have a choice after all the bad press for the dealings with the safety issues. They had to do something in good faith, along with the frames. If a trucks frame has to be replaced to make it road worthy, do you think its suitable for towing? The tow command is the best system I have used! As for the wiggle worm, why wasn’t the pre 07 tundras recommended to exceed 45 MPH.
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On page 196, in the section on trailer towing, it says, “Do not exceed 72 km/ hr (45 mph) or the posted speed limit, whichever is lower, because nstability (swaying) of a towing vehicle-trailer combination usually increases. Exceeding 72 km/hr (45 mph) may cause loss of control.” I don’t know what the new models say but that’s what the 2000 through I believe 2006 said.
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You are aware that factory controllers are optional and just about every truck with a tow package is plug and play.
Greg…I owned an ’06 Tundra and pulled a 5K trailer. Never saw the 45mph warning in the manual and never experienced the wiggle. As far as brake controllers..I’ve owned crappy ones and I’ve had good ones it really comes down to what the operator is looking to get out of it. The Tekonsha Prodigy is one of the best that I’ve used. What I was attempting to point out was Tundra was one of the first mfgs to offer the plug and play just like Tundra was one of the first to have the larger brake rotors. Other companies followed quickly e.g Ford. As I stated in other blogs…this type of competition makes life better for all truck consumers. I don’t think Jason was trying to bash Dodge, I believe he attempting to point out the conflict in the numbers to include Toyota. Personally I like the changes and the looks of the Dodge.
Yhea toyota is full of hype. The plug and play has been around long before they put it in the Tundra. If Toyota’s biggest achievement is their rotors they don’t have much to brag about. They had a recall for not being able to stop! As far as they claimed to have the biggest pinion gears was wrong too and Ford pointed that out. They had to try and pour everything they had in to a half ton because that’s all they had. The truth of how toyota cut corners is showing in the last attempt of making a full size truck. Frame replacement says everything. I feel sorry for anyone who bought one. The truck that is changing everything, one recall at a time! Oh why do you think they had to set a standard for towing? Funny how a truck that had the previous statement in their owners manual and can’t make a frame raised in the bar in less than 10 years of experience. Oh don’t forget they have a known problem with adhering to safety standards!
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Look up who makes Ford tow command brake controller, funny but odd that you say Prodigy is the best.
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I have been towing for over 20 years and started with a gas then found how much better a diesel performs. Not once did I ever think of using a half ton.
Greg it’s funny your Ram has the same issue in a recall too that it can’t stop. ABS recall to be exact. You should view your own backyard before entering someone else’s and discredit it. You see Greg we can play this game all night long.
Greg one good reason I bought the truck I have is that it has the biggest room in the cab in 2007. Not mention it was the first truck to have a 5 star rating in 2007 from IIHS.
rich – I’m not sure. I suppose they could retroactively re-classify the old vehicles to the new standard, but I’m guessing that they would have to do a whole bunch of tests…and that would be expensive. Hopefully, the amount the trucks can tow doesn’t change too much.
mk – As I understand it, the big sources of vehicle weight gain in the last 20 years are: stronger, heavier frames that are more crash worthy; more standard equipment (power windows vs. cranks, airbags + belts vs. belts alone, etc.) and; sound-deadening materials.
greg – If I had any doubt, it’s clear now: you’re a Dodge man. Good for you.
You said “You do realize that this [subject] is over a year old.” I hadn’t heard anything about 2011 Tundras and Tacomas being rated with the new SAE standard until last week – if you heard it a year ago, it must have been in a dream. As for your argument that Toyota’s suck and Dodges are great, I would expect nothing less, by that’s really not the point here.
To me, there’s no rational defense for raising the tow rating on a vehicle by 15% from one year to the next with absolutely NO change in the vehicle. Your response to that point was something like “Toyota lied about floor mats BLAH BLAH Toyota sucks BLAH BLAH Dodge is the best.” Clearly, Toyota’s decision to try and negotiate their way out of a safety recall is inexcusable, and I’ve written as much before on more than one occasion. However, I’m not sure what that has to do with this topic.
The issue in my mind, just so you’re clear, is that all vehicle manufacturers are playing fun and games with tow ratings. This new standard is a good thing, don’t you think?
Mickey – Yes it did – I pulled some info from it and credited you in the article. Thank you! 🙂
Greg..its obvious you’re an expert on everything. You’ve towed for twenty years and you know everything about tow vehicles and trailers. You come on this blog to talk …. and stir the pot. I’m glad to hear you like paying $3.50 a gallon for diesel. I’ve owned Ford, Dodge and Toyota trucks and I know which one is the best. But one thing I don’t do is go on a Ford or Dodge blog to talk crap. Go back to the Dodge blog and hang your hat there..those are the folks that want to hear your comments. BTW don’t quote unless you do it right..I never said Prodigy was the best I said Prodigy was the best that I’ve used.
Jason, your article didnt even say that they are rated! “Toyota is planning to comply with the new SAE standard on 2011 Tacomas and Tundras – two years ahead of schedule”. PLANNING! Planning on when tomorrow, next week, next month, next never? Toyota may want to have a witness for this test? We know their past! When you search for this all you get is this site and the source listed in the article is known for making statements like Dodge owns Titans name. Is there a verified source/link? I found 2011 Chevy HD meets the SAE standard, we know that isn’t a Tundra. A HD is too big for them! If this article is all about Toyota Tundra why is Ford and F-150 used more than Toyota Tundra? With that being said I thought that this article was about the fact the SAE has established a towing standard. Here’s a thought stay on subject. If you bring up the F-150 8 times and have to include the heading and quote to get Tundra being used 8 times. Ford was used a lot more than Toyota. Is this a Ford article since it focused on Ford?
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What ABS recall, I feel like this is the infamous “Dodge owns Titan name” comment someone made. I know there was a brake booster clip that was manufactured incorrectly that was found by quailty control not by the act of Congress. Oh it only affect 20,045 vehicles of different models and didn’t hurt anyone. So wow that’s a good comparision to a Toyota that can’t stop, it shows how quailty control should work! So I will repeat myself as I did before and never received a response. Could you please provide a link.
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Rich, grab a tissue and calm down! This site likes to make fun of other brands like the April fools joke of Toyota to make Dodge Ram. It was poking fun at Dodges quailty right before Toyota’s world feel apart. Karma, who knows. Isn’t it odd that this article references another brand more than its own in this article? Hummm! So which vehicle is the best one that may need a new frame, can’t stop or go and needs four thousand air injectors lets not forget the past engine sludge, buckling tailgate that gets the response from Toyota saying there is not standard for the weight on the tailgate, dropping spare tires on multiple models, bed bounce, rust rust and more rust and CEO that I believe said the quailty was a disgrace. Oh and consumer reports pulled its recommended status it was so bad!
greg – Boy, I sure am glad Chrysler has never had a recall like Toyota…wait a minute…that’s right! They did! Check this out:
http://www.freep.com/article/2.....d-minivans
and
http://www.freep.com/article/2.....ver-pedals
I dunno, greg. What do ya think…karma?
Rich, so Chrysler hide the facts and put people in danger? Nope that was Toyota! So did Dodge hide the facts and did it take the media and CONGRESSIONAL HEARING to get to something in motion to protect the consumers. Once again only Toyota would do that, its a fact! So 700,000 vehicles recalled by Chrysler for a problem that has not caused a injury or accident Is comparable to the multi-million recalled by Toyota that claimed the life of a family? No, again toyota wins by a uncontrolled mile. Get it! So it is evident that Toyota does not care (which ever care you want to use Car salesman) about their customers. It was very evident!! Especially standing infront of congress! So would I put my family in a toyota? Hell no! I don’t like them close to me one the road!
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If that’s karma on Dodges behalf, looks like they came out smelling like a rose! Did take a act of Congress for them to show they CARE about their customers safety! You know no one wants to pull a “TOYOTA”.
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Good try Rich try again, could you atleast stick with the truck category? Or atleast let someone know you have to reach way out there and pick on a mini-van! But I would expect nothing less from this site! What’s next wanna bring up bicycles? Trucks, Rich, Trucks!!
Since there was so much concern about Ford here ya go! You may wanna grab some tissues!
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http://www.fool.com/investing/.....hurts.aspx
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....st_Popular
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http://www.freep.com/article/2.....1002/rss02
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Hows that quailty, US News ranks the Tundra with a Ram. I feel sorry for the Ram! By the way I own a 08 Super Duty, but will always root for the under dogs!!! Expect in this situation when its TOYOTA!!!!
greg – Settle down, bub. It will be okay. I was just trying to get your goat and I obviously succeeded. I really could care less if Chrysler has recalls or not. Why? Because I don’t own one so it doesn’t impact me. I decided that a Chrysler product was not right for me, that’s my perogative. You decided a Chrysler vehicle was right for you, that’s your perogative. That’s what make America so great: lot’s of different types of people and lots of choices. I do think you should try to be a bit nicer on here, though. There is more to life than putting down complete strangers on the internet. Oh, and it was me, not Rich, who posted the Chrysler recall links. Didn’t mean to confuse anyone. I hope you have a blessed day, greg.
greg – Are you taking your pills?! 🙂 The article goes like this:
Tow ratings are prone to being manipulated because there is no standard. Ford and Dodge are great examples of ratings manipulation, but the truth is we can’t trust anyone’s ratings without some sort of standard. Toyota will be the first half-ton truck manufacturer to adopt these standards for the 2011 model year (as of today), and they’re warning Toyota dealers the new ratings will be lower. I don’t know how much lower because that info isn’t available yet (it’s coming soon I’m told).
Why am I summarizing this for you?
As for your point about Ford surging ahead of Toyota in JD Power, good for them. After 35 years of the domestic autos being behind the curve, they’re finally ahead. I think the JD Power numbers are pretty interesting, especially the popular interpretation of GMC’s “top quality” rating, and if you come back on Monday you’ll see an article that discusses them in greater detail.
Greg…I never said anything about minivans. I think you’re mixing up names within the blog..relax.
Greg look at odi.nhtsa and then look at all your recalls since 2000. I won’t give you the exact spot where it is. You can search it. By the way since you used the rusting frames of the Tundra which are the model years 2000 – 2003 then it’s only fair I go back to 2000 on Dodge. Make sure you look at Ram and your 1500 series. Besides the ABS recall you will find a good one on your lower control arm too. I have yet to hear a Tundra couldn’t stop. Much less kill someone also. Since you mentioned it how about you provide that link where a Tundra was a runaway and couldn’t stop and killed someone. Everytime you state something you know you will receive what you put out. provide the link. The link I provided is ODI.NHTSA.gov.
We can play the recall game like I said all night. To tell you the truth I could care less looking up anything to do with Dodge/Chrysler. I don’t care for that company. That’s the reason they never got a chance. Dodge shouldn’t have been bailed out a 2nd time. Now we know the tax payer lost alot in that 2nd bailout. Yes blame it on the congressman. Still your company still is a failure for putting themselves in that situation. Yes Toyota was a failure too when they tried to hide the facts of a recall. Just like Jason stated they will pay for it. If you believe for one moment that your company doesn’t do the same then you are very gullable and foolish to believe that.
Vehicle Make / Model: Model Year(s):
DODGE / RAM 2000
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NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 01V038000
Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: PICKUP TRUCKS EQUIPPED WITH AN ANTI-LOCK BRAKING SYSTEM (ABS). SOME VEHICLES MAY HAVE INADEQUATE CLEARANCE BETWEEN THE FRONT TIRE/WHEEL AND THE BRAKE HOSE/ABS SENSOR WIRE ASSEMBLY. DURING FULL LOCK TURNS, IT IS POSSIBLE FOR THE TIRE OR WHEEL TO CONTACT THE BRAKE HOSE/ABS SENSOR WIRE ASSEMBLY.
Consequence:
THIS COULD ULTIMATELY RESULT IN WIRE DAMAGE AND/OR A HOLE IN THE BRAKE LINE, AFFECTING BRAKE EFFECTIVENESS, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL REPLACE THE FRONT BRAKE HOSE ASSEMBLIES, AND THE ABS SENSOR WIRE WILL BE INSPECTED AND REPLACED IF NECESSARY. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN MARCH 8, 2001. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT DAIMLERCHRYSLER AT 1-800-853-1403.
Greg I shall give you a suggestion about having Toyota’s around you. Either get use to it, or leave period. If only you really would see what you wrote and see it for how stupid it sounds.
One last thing there Greg for a person who towed for 20 years you sure act like a spoiled teenager. Have you ever compared anything Greg? Did you come up with different analogies? The reason I’m stating this is, because you fail to pick up on that. That’s what Jason’s is doing. Have you seen a Dodge website critical of their product as much as Jason here? Provide the link please.
Mickey, the fact you had to go back to 2000 to find this issue says everything. The 2000 tundra was no dream vehicle. That’s a comparison by the way. So how many generation changes had the ram been through since 2000?
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Jason, the question was why didn’t you use Toyota’s previous data of the previous ten years of capacity. I know you could only use ten years because that’s all the experience with full size trucks. You ask how did Dodge increase their capacity with out changing the truck.
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Well it appears Jason that the tundra is not the first to have a truck that meets the SAE towing standard! See the link.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....ounds.html
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Benvenuti also said Dodge truck engineers followed new testing protocols established by the Society of Automotive Engineers and a group of truck manufacturers to standardize tow testing, which covered in late 2007.“While all manufacturers use a slightly different tow-rating criteria when evaluating their vehicles several common factors must be maintained by all when determining tow ratings,” Benvenuti said.“These include design requirements such as engine, transmission and axle cooling, while still ensuring a durable vehicle when towing. Our engineers performed both simulation and real-world tests to ensure that all of our internal targets and all the guidelines set by the new proposed SAE tow standard were achieved. The 2010 Dodge Ram 1500’s towing capability was re-rated without sacrificing performance, quality or reliability, and now exceeds both Ford and Chevy on comparably equipped vehicles.” this was published July 28 2009, or am I dreaming?
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I think I just provided That this site needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Boy Jason all those Dodge jokes are coming back hard! Karma!
Greg first thing I asked for, was a link. Are you dodging the question? You’re the one who went back to model year 2000. I just responded in kind. How long has Dodge been building full size trucks? You and others before you and after you for some reason are very mad that the fact in 7 years time frame that Toyota raised the level on the big 3 in towing, drivetrain, and brakes.
Mickey, how many times have I asked for the “Dodge owns Titan” name link? How about that “Dodge to manufacture the Nissan Titan” one that is still going to happen as you said! I really don’t care what you think and you asking me for a link. Hypocrite!
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As for Toyota raising the standard in seven years, did Jason say “Toyota will be the first half-ton truck manufacturer to adopt these standards for the 2011 model year (as of today), and they’re warning Toyota dealers the new ratings will be lower”. Seems like a failure in more than one way!
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First off they are not the first!
Second how does it feel to think your truck really can not tow the advertised amount?
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Mickey, nice try! Why don’t you use a play on words like Jason’s “care”. Apperently you two need to get together and share your big fish stories.
“So 700,000 vehicles recalled by Chrysler for a problem that has not caused a injury or accident Is comparable to the multi-million recalled by Toyota that claimed the life of a family?” That’s what I said, note not one mention of Tundra! Adding words where you see fit Mickey? That’s sad when I keep providing valid facts and a someone has to stoop that low to try to discredit them! Look ls like it backfired again! Jason good article, I would expect nothing less! Maybe alittle research next time!
Oh heres the problem, “Mickey – Yes it did – I pulled some info from it and credited you in the article”.
Okay Greg since you failed to provide the link for your statement dated 6/11 and 6/17.
Greg 6/11
Yhea toyota is full of hype. The plug and play has been around long before they put it in the Tundra. If Toyota’s biggest achievement is their rotors they don’t have much to brag about. They had a recall for not being able to stop! As far as they claimed to have the biggest pinion gears was wrong too and Ford pointed that out. They had to try and pour everything
Greg 6/17
What ABS recall, I feel like this is the infamous “Dodge owns Titan name” comment someone made. I know there was a brake booster clip that was manufactured incorrectly that was found by quailty control not by the act of Congress. Oh it only affect 20,045 vehicles of different models and didn’t hurt anyone. So wow that’s a good comparision to a Toyota that can’t stop, it shows how quailty control should work! So I will repeat myself as I did before and never received a response. Could you please provide a link.
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Now showed you the link I had which was a year old on the Titan name. I told you I don’t follow Dodge at all so I didn’t keep up with it. Now twice you mention on this thread and once on another thread that the Tundra couldn’t stop. On the other thread you mention a family killed in the same paragraph misleading eveyone to think the Tundra couldn’t stop and killed someone. NOW provide the link in your own words. You’re playing the words guy. I’m just going by the website which is a Tundra. Also can you provide the link that gives proof that the SUA that killed someone as your claimed statement. I’m not talking about a floor mat that got stuck either. This is what you are referring to so provide the link.
Greg – You are absolutely incorrect in saying that the 2010 Ram 1500 meets the J2807 standard. First of all, there is nothing on the Ram website regarding this standard and the 1500.
http://www.dodge.com/en/2010/r.....g_payload/
Secondly, if you look at the disclaimer on the page I just referenced, you’ll see that Dodge’s website says “maximum towing capacities with properly equipped vehicle and a 150-lb driver. Options, equipment, cargo and passengers must be deducted”,
That, you see, means that the 2010 Ram specifically does *not* meet the standard. J2807 requires manufacturers to assume more than just a 150 lbs driver:
“One major change from past practice is what the SAE committee defines as Tow Vehicle Trailering Weight (TVTW). Unlike the past, a driver, a passenger, optional equipment purchased by at least one third of the customer base, and hitch equipment are now included in this calculation”
See the bottom of this page for that quote (and feel free to learn something while you’re there):
http://www.automobilemag.com/f.....index.html
It seems that you, Greg, are the one who should be taken with a grain of salt.
Mickey – I too would like to see a Dodge site that is as critical of Chrysler-Fiat as I have been of Toyota.
Funny I don’t see manufactures stating they use SAE J1349 engine power rating standard either. Oh Jason if you dont like the facts take it up with them or prove that they didnt! Stop whinning! So what’s your point. You where incorrect and that’s that!
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Mickey blah blah blah, since you provided the Titan name link before post it again.
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Funny how They can’t be right! Need a tissue!
Jason thanks for that link to automobilemag.com here is a qoute that backs up what was previously said in the link I posted. “After three years of effort by the three domestic manufacturers and representatives from several of the Japanese brands, a standard was approved in April 2008 and scheduled for 2013 model year implementation. Some companies have already begin phasing in the more realistic J2807 tow ratings for their new models”.
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So it was approved in 2008 and they even stated some manufactures has been using more realistic j2807 standards.
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are you not in the automoblie business? Shouldn’t you know what the competition is doing? So since you where so concerned that the SAE J2807 is not listed for the Ram, why isn’t j1349 listed on any of the trucks motors, I know its used by most (GM, Chrysler) but why isn’t it listed? Keep on sending information and links!!
I agree Jason. You’re not like the other Tundra websites. You don’t hold punches and yes sometimes the Tundra isn’t always the best and you point that out. To me that makes this website unique and noteworthy. Yes Greg I belong to 3 other Tundra websites and they don’t bash the Tundra there. You can’t say that here. This is one of my major reasons I like this website the most. Also being my first Tundra website. Greg you have on here others who aren’t all for the Tundra but won’t be as bias as you are about things put on here. Ask Justin who is a Ford owner. He’s pretty much unbias about most topic discussions here. He’s been on here quite a few years also.
So Greg is a Dodge salesman–excuse me, I mean Ram salesman since Chrysler has dropped the Dodge name from their trucks.
Brake controllers have always been optional add-ons until the last few years. I have one I installed on my Tundra by simply plugging it into the provided socket and screwing the controller in an appropriate place on the dash. The same is true for Ram(Dodge), Chevy, GMC, and Ford. A factory installed brake controller says nothing about the towing capacity of the vehicle.
The original article is useful, informative and well written. All Dodge owners with terminal inferiority complexes should probably go to a forum that deals exclusively with Chrysler products so they can pat each other on the back and not embarass themselves with inane drivel.
Greg – Yes or no: Are you saying the 2010 Dodge Ram meets J2807? I want you to be crystal clear about your facts before I destroy your credibility.
Frank – Thank you. I think it’s great that people come here and argue about Toyota’s quality, reliability, etc…if only they were open to the possibility of being wrong in the process.
Mickey – Thanks man. I think Greg is a smart enough guy, but he’s gotten caught up in some personal grudge and made an error.
Jason: I have see this on Chevy forums: No one cares what other people like and buy but if someone doesn’t own the product then why haunt a blog about it bitching about something of which they have no knowlede?
I own a Toyota and that is why I ended up here–same story when I owned a Chevy and went to a Chevey site.
Jason..I wouldnt even waste your time responding to Greg. The guy drives a Ford, defends Dodge and hates Toyota. His only purpose to leaving a reply on this web site is to stir the pot. He mixes truth with lies and kicks back to see the reaction. He’ll attach a link that quotes a dodge representative( which is far from impartial). In fact if you continue to read the responses to the link he uses, you’ll see that almost all are negative e.g. dodge not having the 6 speed tranny. The more we react to his comments the more we feed his motive!
Greg – Are you capable of answering a simple question? I’m going to delete every comment you make on this thread until you answer me – are you saying that the 2010 Ram 1500 is rated to the J2807 standard? YES…or…NO?
Anyone want to bet that Greg never answers?
Rich – I can’t help myself. The cool part is, I RUN this thing, and I don’t have to tolerate crap from Greg or anyone else that wants to troll.
I’ll always tolerate different opinions, but I’m not going to listen to anyone who won’t listen to me…and I don’t think anyone else should have to listen to these people either.
Frank – Thanks. I don’t get it. I often visit sites that cater to Ford and GM fans, but I don’t waste anyone’s time at those sites arguing.
Anyways, thanks to all of you who visit the site and comment thoughtfully.
Yes, I agree with it! They are the engineers and I’m not! Do you go around and second guess doctors if they say you have cancer? No they are the doctor! The engineers say its good then its good for me and they have to answer in a court of law if there is a accident as long as I operated in there prescribed manner.
Frank great comments. Like Jason I was part of a Silverado club, F-150 club when I had respective trucks. This was from 2004 when I had a 2003 F-150 to 2006 when I traded the Ford in for a 2006 Silverado LT3. In March 2006 I was in the silverado club and never got out of it. I just don’t visit it no more. In fact in the silverado club you talk bad about the Chevy you get banned. I was warned for just stating what issues I had mainly with a headliner. Like Jason stated try and find another manufacturer club who pulls no punches and tells it like it is.
Do those other sites produce false information? So Jason I expect that you will provide the facts that the article I provided was incorrect or i will make the conclusion that this is a lie! Could you also provide links to where you gathered your information so we can verify its true from now on?
why does this site focus more on other brands? Here’s a idea stay on the Main topic (Tundra isn’t it) and you will have less “trolls”. Seems pretty logic, but it appears its so hard for some to understand!!
Greg it’s very apparent that you have never visited another manufacturer’s website and you don’t keep an open mind. You want others to prove themselves with a link but yet you haven’t given a link to show proof of what you write. This isn’t a one way street much less Burger King where you can have it your way. Like I said earlier have you ever did comparissons and analogies. I guess in the 20 years of towing you have done you never compared a brake controller. Greg, Jason gave you more credit than I will ever stating you were smart. You’re really showing your intelligence about not comparing manufacturer’s. I provided you that link about the Titan which was a year old and now you want me to rpovide it again to you. You have yet to provide me a link in what you have been stating. Greg I respond in kind. I’m sure no one on here will ever provide you a link for anything since you want to play dumb abd have everyone do something for you. Jason doesn’t need to provide you a link. How about you providing a link prooving Jason wrong? Yes we know you won’t. You just basically admitted you’re a troll in your last statement. If it looks like a troll, smell like a troll, writes like a troll then Greg you answer the rest. If you want to play simple minded then no one will respond. Either provide a link or go do something more constructive with your life.
Greg – Thank you for responding to me.
As for your response, I’ve already provided proof. The new towing standard requires tow ratings to account for both a driver AND a passenger AND the weight of equipment that at least one third of purchasers choose. Re-read the article from automobile magazine. If you don’t believe that article, of if it doesn’t make sense, here’s another:
“And we’re not going to let people use a stripped-down model to get their ratings for a whole group of models. We require the whole EPA content, the same weight we use for fuel economy and emissions certification, including two people.”
http://www.trucktrend.com/feat.....dards.html
You should also re-read the “proof” you offered – the Dodge spokesperson doesn’t say that the rating meets the standard, only that they conducted the tests required by the standard. There’s a difference between testing the vehicle to the standard and declaring a rating that meets the standard. When the Ram 1500 meets the standard, it won’t come with a disclaimer that says they only used one 150-lb driver.
Mickey, first your lieing! You have not provided a link to Dodge owns Titan name or that the Dodge to make Titan deal is going to happen after being canceled. By the way I don’t take anything you say seriously! What do you want? I can not make sense out of your rambling! Why the personal attack challenging my knowledge, I don’t make comments about you marrying a 14 or was it a 15 year old do I? Stay on subject!
Jason once again here is the qoute out of the July 28 2009 article stating they did meet the standards. “Our engineers performed both simulation and real-world tests to ensure that all of our internal targets and all the guidelines set by the new proposed SAE tow standard were achieved”.
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I don’t see the 150lbs that you speak of on the dodge site you provided.
http://www.dodge.com/en/2010/r.....g_payload/
http://www.dodge.com/hostc/vsm.....=CUD201013
Nothing there about 150lbs.
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Since this subject is about standards and how numbers incorrect from the manufactures I have a question for you. I have answered your questions to include how Dodge increased their 2010 towing capacity direct from the horses mouth.
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How did the 2005 Tacoma have 273 hp an d the 2006 had I believe. 240 hp with the same 4.0 V-6. Seems odd consideringv that’s when J1349 came out. You know the standard for measring hp which requires a witness to ensure the proper amount of fluids (less oil means less resistance equals more power) and test is completed correctly. Also how much hp does the tundra have at the rear wheels? The Dodge 5.7l stock has I believe between 340 to 350 rear wheel according to hypertech test. I have read on forums guys saying the i-force 5.7l dyno-ed in a 303 rear wheel. Is toyota HP numbers real? Are they inflated numbers?
Why did this article Why did this article disappear from the recent articles? Huum! Makes you wonder!
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Jason, your proof doesn’t add up! Got something solid from a credtiable source (ie: SAE, or something from Dodge saying the didn’t). If its wrong call them out, I bet they would love to hear from a engineer carsalesman!
greg – First of all, in regards to the fiasco that Toyota had with their HP ratings, I don’t deny that they mis-rated a lot of their cars. Honda and Toyota both have been accused of this multiple times.
As for the Tundra’s rear wheel horsepower, I’ve measured it as low as 280hp and as high as 297…but that’s at over 5,000 feet. Experts say to expect a 20% powertrain loss, and I’m told that Denver robs about 15% of an engine’s power, so it sounds like the numbers are in line. Having said that, have you ever tried to dyno test a 6 speed transmission in a Tundra? The damn thing shifts before you can really get a good reading. I think it’s possible Toyota’s HP rating is incorrect, but I don’t think individual dyno tests are proof of that…do you?
Secondly, the proof I’ve supplied regarding the Ram’s tow rating is more than adequate. Take a look again at the photo on this page:
http://www.dodge.com/en/2010/r.....g_payload/
Do you see the caption below the picture? It’s white text on a black background and it says “Maximum tow capacities with properly equipped vehicle and a 150-lb driver. Options, equipment, cargo and passengers must be deducted”
Based on everything you read about the standard – be it from Automobile magazine, PickupTrucks.com, or TruckTrend, a J2807 rating must account for both a driver AND a passenger. Dodge’s admission that they don’t include a passenger in their max tow rating is PROOF the rating doesn’t meet the standard.
Sure, the testing procedure might have been the same one mandated by J2807, but that’s only part of the rules. The other part is not to publicize ratings that don’t account for normal use…i.e., the weight of a passenger, accessories and options, etc., must all be included in the published rating.
If you still doubt me when I say that the 2010 Ram’s tow rating is NOT compliant with J2807, let me know.
P.S. The recent articles list is automated – it only shows the last 5 posts. Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not “hiding” from you. In fact, I’m kind of hoping you drag this out.
Jason..thanks for pointing out why the RAM dyno test indicates higher rear wheel hp. If RAM would use a 6 speed tranny then we could compare oranges to oranges. Keep up the good work. BTW I think the 6 speed tranny is the only way to go with a tow vehicle.
Greg wasn’t it you that stated stay on subject? You stated I was making it personal by questioning your knowledge. I’m afraid Greg you did the same when you asked about the Titan. Now did I state anything about your family Greg? Who’s making it personal Greg? Why don’t you talk about my mom or sister too while you’re at it too. Now if you can read that good then you know exactly where I posted the link that showed an article dated March 2009 about Chrysler and the Titan I also told you (this is the third time) that was the latest I had and I don’t follow Dodge. You want people to listen to you and you stoop to an all time low to write about my ex-wife. If you’re going to write about it at least get the age right. She was 16 when we got married. Divorced when she was 36. Okay Greg. Anything I write to you or about you I will respond in kind.
Mickey this will be the last time I will ever respond to you! You made the IGNORANT commentsabout the TITAN,never responsed to the request for verification of the information. Jason, finally answered it! You keep referncing this so called article, its a elusive one! Give it up and dont make it personal. If you dont want the world to know your business DONT POST IT ON THE INTERNET, just a idea.
Jason, where to begin.
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Tundra 6 speed transmission. Oh it’s the problem, who would have guessed. If you manually hold the gear you dont have the problem you are speaking of. I know it works in the Tundra, i had a rental for a month! Excuses, you have them for everything!
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Ram disclamier. That doesnt prove a thing. That was saying that the max you can to was 10k with a 150lb driver, then you minus the equipment and weight of passengers. Im requesting really proof from a creditable source (not anyone associated with this site) to debunk the link i provided. Call the Myth busters if you want! Like I said before they are the engineers and they state that they did it, who are you to say they didnt with no proof, and trying to say a disclaimer is the golden key to the puzzle, i will not even comment on that.
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You did say “I think it’s possible Toyota’s HP rating is incorrect, but I don’t think individual dyno tests are proof of that…do you?”. So what are you going to do to fix it? Since HP is part of J2807 and you think its possible that the HP is incorrect it opens the door of what else is wrong too? How are you going to verify the HP? Dyno is the most economical for a individual but if there is this doubt maybe someone needs to worry about the beloved Tundra instead of the RAM!!! We all know they have been know to stretch the truth in this area as well as others before!!!
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Rich, do you know how a dyno works? Blame the transmission!
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Too bad you have to put power adders such as headers, exhaust, unichips, air intake to get the performance the Ram offers out of the box!
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http://blogs.insideline.com/ro.....ested.html
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http://www.titantalk.com/forum.....mbers.html
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http://www.tundrasolutions.com.....dyno-test/
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http://www.dragtimes.com/Toyot.....16878.html
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Need a tissue! let me guess now your going to discredit edmunds!
Jason, how is the 2010 4Runner J2807 tested (* Per the new SAE J2807 Methodology) and the towing capacity at 5,000lbs is the same for a SR5, Trail and Limited. So all three of these models must have the same configuration and weigh identical right? There is no weight difference between models and configuration? So a Limited and SR5 must weigh the same or someone is lying somewhere along the way!!!!
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http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr.....ncid=11092
rich – I’m not sure that the Tundra’s 6-speed keeps it from showing the max HP, or that the Ram’s 5-speed makes it have a higher RWHP rating. All I’m saying is that the Tundra’s transmission is difficult to correctly dyno test, which is why I’ve had such a wide range of results (sometimes with the same vehicle and same dyno).
Greg – “If you manually hold a gear it’s not a problem” – sigh. This is where experience counts sir. I’ve actually DONE what you’re saying, and Toyota’s truck brain doesn’t allow you to hold 4th gear in the manner you suggest. Rent a Tundra, go to the dyno shop, try out a test, and then get back to me. You’ll see what I mean…it shifts, even if you try and force it to stay in 4th. Now I can get it to stay in 3rd, but that’s not going to give us the best dyno ratings, is it?
I’m TICKLED that you still don’t believe me about the Ram. Here’s what I propose: we each sign an agreement to donate $100 to charity whenever one of us is proved wrong. The bet: The 2010 Dodge Ram 1500’s maximum tow RATING does not conform to the J2807 standards. I’ll send you a PDF to sign, we’ll put a copy here on the website for EVERYONE TO SEE, and then we’ll contact Dodge’s PR team to get the answer. Sound fair?
I think you’re mistaken that HP is somehow pertinent to J2807. Horsepower is just a function of torque and RPM – it’s not a direct measurement used to figure tow capacity. As for what I’m supposed to do about someone’s accusations that the Tundra’s HP rating is inflated, I don’t know. If you want to loan me a truck engine and a test platform, I’ll be glad to do the work.
As for the Ram 1500 that Edmunds tested made more RWHP than all the Tundra links you found…neat. If you have a point here, I’m listening. If it’s something like “The Ram is better than the Tundra,” save us both the time. I already know how you feel! 🙂
Jason,
“However, there are a couple of reasons to doubt these numbers:
1. The engines haven’t improved enough to match the increase in tow ratings. The 2010 F-150 has a 5.4L V8 rated at 310 horsepower and 365 lb-ft of torque. The 1990 F-150 had a 5.8L, which was rated at 210 horsepower and 315 lb-ft of torque. While the horsepower increase since 1990 is significant (more than 67%) torque is what gets a trailer moving, and that hasn’t improved more than 15%.” you brought up HP.
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As i see it i already provied you wrong!
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As for 4th gear, sounds like you need to take that up with toyota. By now you should have plenty of experience with them since the recalls! sgh
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Make a deal with you, LMAO. Your a car salesman you screw people over for a living!!!! like i said i already provided the proof! sgh,anyways get your check book out!
Who do you think i qouted????
Roger Benvenuti
Office: (248) 512-4634
Cell: (248) 841-3684
Fax: (248) 512-2913
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here it is again!
“Benvenuti also said Dodge truck engineers followed new testing protocols established by the Society of Automotive Engineers and a group of truck manufacturers to standardize tow testing, which covered in late 2007.“While all manufacturers use a slightly different tow-rating criteria when evaluating their vehicles several common factors must be maintained by all when determining tow ratings,” Benvenuti said.“These include design requirements such as engine, transmission and axle cooling, while still ensuring a durable vehicle when towing. Our engineers performed both simulation and real-world tests to ensure that all of our internal targets and all the guidelines set by the new proposed SAE tow standard were achieved. The 2010 Dodge Ram 1500’s towing capability was re-rated without sacrificing performance, quality or reliability, and now exceeds both Ford and Chevy on comparably equipped vehicles.” this was published July 28 2009
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Atleast next time do alittle research, how many times do i have to say this???????????
Greg – So you’re saying that you’re not going to agree to my $100 charity bet? Are you against donating to charity?
stay on subject! you already lost! The intial response was from Chrysler PR!
Oh by the way i provided all his information for ya! Dont forget to let him know where you stand with his statement and your extensive background! He should get a kick out of it!
Greg – I thought you were just a malcontent, but now I find out that you’re chicken. And you call me a liar…
If you don’t want to bet, just say so. Don’t be scared – be a man and say you don’t want to put your money where your mouth is. I’ll respect that more than a guy who refuses to bet and keeps saying the same thing over and over…
Jason, let me spell it out for you again.
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“Benvenuti also said Dodge truck engineers followed new testing protocols established by the Society of Automotive Engineers and a group of truck manufacturers to standardize tow testing, which covered in late 2007.“While all manufacturers use a slightly different tow-rating criteria when evaluating their vehicles several common factors must be maintained by all when determining tow ratings,” Benvenuti said.“These include design requirements such as engine, transmission and axle cooling, while still ensuring a durable vehicle when towing. Our engineers performed both simulation and real-world tests to ensure that all of our internal targets and all the guidelines set by the new proposed SAE tow standard were achieved. The 2010 Dodge Ram 1500’s towing capability was re-rated without sacrificing performance, quality or reliability, and now exceeds both Ford and Chevy on comparably equipped vehicles.”
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Roger Benvenuti Office: (248) 512-4634 Cell: (248) 841-3684 Fax: (248) 512-2913
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Now do you notice that the names are the same? Notice his email address, chrylser? So since the bet was you where going to get with Chrysler’s PR and get your answer there it is! It came from Chrysler, call him! Give it up, face it your wrong!!!!! Its a dead subject!
Be a man and admit your wrong or prove it! Stop playing childish games!
Jason I understand that he intimidates you, he done something with his life and makes legitimate statement of facts. I know what your thinking, here is a gentlemen influential in the automobile industry that I like to act like I know what I’m talking about. I can’t BS my way with him! He has made something out of himself and people resepect what he says, I’m just a used car salesman! What would I say to him? “Sir, I’m a used car salesman thar runs a Toyota Tundra site that has a thing for picking on Dodge, I was wondering if you could talk about the towing capability of the Ram?
Oh don’t forget the fact you has some so called experience in engineering, I will have to ask for a college transcript to provided verification. Facts no hear say from folks on here!
Oh by the way since the link and statement I provided was from Chrysler and correct guess what? Yes your a LIAR! Good job, you could have saved face and said well I didn’t know about that. That would have been that, but NO. You had to push it and now look. There is the fact, the information to the gentlemen that said it and imagine that he is pretty high in Chrysler! So there goes the creditbility! I always knew it was a matter of time! LIAR!!!!
Greg – All I’m hearing is “BLAH BLAH BLAH I’m too scared to bet because I’m afraid I’m wrong.”
Insult me all you want – I’m not the one afraid to put his money where his mouth is.
Look play all the childish games you want the proof is right there. Your only making your self look bad! I had provided my source and for some reason you can NOT back up your statement with of a bet! Grow up! Its apperent that I’m correct or you would have been all over it to defend yourself, its your reputation!
Please. That’s loser talk. If you were as confident as you claim to be – and so certain that I’m full of it – you’d accept my bet. Lame.
Instead of showing a little backbone and either A) agreeing to the bet or B) saying “no thanks,” you try and tread some weak middle ground. I expected more from you.
Greg you stoop to bring in family members and now we call people names. Yes I put it on the internet Greg, but did you see me write it on this subject? You are pathetic. I doubt very serious you have 20 years towing because you act worst than a kid. If you don’t agree everyone else is lieing. How about you Greg? You posted about a Tundra being a runaway and I asked for a link. You haven’t provided it yet. Who’s lieing now. To cover it up you try stating I’m rambling on. Now you stoop to the lowest level by bringing in my ex who has nothing to to with the subject. You remember Greg a Tundra website discussing towing abilities. Thyen you keep beating around the bush and cry fopul that this website is a liar, B/S, and take it with a grain of salt. Yet you keep coming back. Who is the fool Greg? The one who leads or the one who follows? All you prooved so far Greg is that you are the total package. Yes the total a$$hole. Yes if I was you Greg, I would be afraid of all Toyota’s around you as you stated. Again Greg I will s-p-e-l-l it out for you. You read Jason’s reply about that and I know you read the next two or three posts. That’s where I told I put the link which was dated March 2009. Now what part of “I DON’T FOLLOW DODGE” you don’t understand? If you need help in reading it I will spell it out for you. Who’s the reall ignorant one that disagree’s with this website and keeps coming back with falsehoods trying to proove himself? You can eliminate alot of this because deep down you want a Tundra.
But yet he can’t place the $100 charity bet. Yes jason he’s a loser with a total package. He’s a close runner as anonymous was. Very pathetic to try and dodge the question (pun intended).
Jason, if you can not man up and answer the question i have asked of prove me wrong without your childish bet it says alot. Your stalling. I feel its a set up, i dont know how but i dont trust you! If you can not write a honest article it says alot. I choose C. its obvious you can not prove the statement wrong. Funny how you where being so childish before and power hungry about me answering your question and you can not answer mine.
Can this get on subject Jason and can you answer the question? The ball is in your court!
Greg – Still sounds like you’re afraid to me. If you’re so sure that you’re right, why won’t you bet?
Look, im not going to bet! I know im right and have nothing to prove!
After calling me names and re-posting the same info, you FINALLY say no to my challenge.
Thank you. All it took was a few hours and 12 comments.
Now that we’ve got that out of the way, I’ve contacted Ram’s PR people on Twitter and sent an email to your buddy Benvenuti. When I’m right, will you promise to either a) show me some F’ing respect or b) go away forever?
If I’m wrong, I’ll go ahead and donate $100 to the good people at Kiva.org. You should check them out – microlending is a really cool charity idea.
Dont worry im helping your creditbility by posting this on forums so the all know your full of BS!!! HAHAHAHAHA
Good! Tell everyone you know man. I’m not afraid.
Did you tell them your past in car sales and being a engineer?
Do you think I should? While I’m at it, should I tell them that you’re afraid to put your money where your mouth is?
P.S. Never said I was an engineer. Only that I have a engineering degree. Colorado School of Mines, class of 2001. If you look on page 43 of this alumni magazine under the heading 2001, you’ll see “Jason A Lancaster, BSc ENG” with my job title at the time, which was “car salesman”.
http://magazine.mines.edu/Back.....m_1%20.pdf
Of course, knowing you, you’ll accuse me of identity theft! LOL.
You are asking a gentleman the question he is already qouted as saying in a CREDITABLE article. Do you think the answer is going to change??? Do you think i trust any information you are going to produce? It has to be from a independant source as I said before! Like i have always said you dont trust a liar or theif!
As for repect, you cant show your fellow Toyota owners respect! You remeber the CHP office and his family that passed in the accident? There where some comments on this site that where just uncalled for. You are the moderator right? You control this site but let it go on and you want respect! Show respect and maybe you will earn respect and I dont mean to me!
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So you ever gonna answer the questions i asked? Can you?
WTF Greg? You say you want proof, and now I’m asking for it on your behalf, and that’s not good enough? Please tell me you’re joking. What’s your email address – I’ll gladly CC you on all correspondence.
Look, im not going to bet! I know im right and have nothing to prove!
Spoken like a true loser there Greg. Talk the talk but can’t walk the walk.
Jason I suggest that no one comments with Greg anymore. Reason is everyone has to proove themselves but he doesn’t. Everyone is a liar but not him. When he losing face he resorts to calling names and bringing in family members into a thread where the subject matter has nothing to do with what’s being stated here. Greg you have the dubious honor of beating out anonymous in the biggest a$$hole category. You don’t like what’s mention but yet you freakin idiot you come back. Are you a moron? Yes idiot this website is connected to other websites. So have you foolish funb reporting to others. They will see how big of an idiot you are.
Greg the article of the CHP showing disrespect? You have all views as to what happen or should have happen. You don’t like it build your own website idiot and do as you please. I’m one who would think a CHP had more sense of judgement than what he used. You don’t like what’s said go hug a tree you may feel better.
Here you go Greg and now go cry on someone else’s shoulder:
Mickey says:
June 6, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Okay Matt, sorry for the delay been out of town working. I went by the latest material I had seen which I don’t follow Dodge or care to. This article was dated may 2009:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG…..275960631/**http%3a//www.motorauthority.com/blog/1033155_chrysler-may-still-build-nissans-redesigned-titan-pickup
Now were you forthcoming with material stating that the govt dropped some of the payback but elected not to say half of what was owed? No you were called out Jason on that. Fiat did buy into your so called american company. Whether it’s 20 to 35% who cares you’re no longer an American company. Now you failed to tell everyone about the Jatco trannys you have in your company vehicles. Yes JATCO is a Nissan company which has been suppling your so call american company since 2004. Hence the reason your american part content that was lower than the rest and you and Hemi hated. http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG…..275960631/**http%3a//wot.motortrend.com/6574614/auto-news/nissan-chrysler-officially-end-joint-projects-titan-fate-unknown/index.html
Yes Matt I misquoted info I only had. The same can be said for your misquote. Also you put down I wrote something about the vehicle’s gross weight when all I wrote was what was quoted in the article that ram tows only 9,100lbs to Tundra’s 10,400lbs. Just the same when Jason stated how did Dodge raised the towing without any change? It seems your company quite deceitful on that.
Greg I travel alot with my job that’s why I have 89,000 miles on my 07. So if you can’t handle what’s been put out simply go to your room then. Don’t let the door hit you on the way.
Greg this was when you and Matt tried to double team for the same thing.
Jason what question have I not answered or provided my source for? I’m not afraid to share you information like other people! Still waiting on the out come of your investigation!
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Mickey notice how I have been ignoring your comment? At ease sailor!
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you guys seem alittle irritated, all the back pedaling. Getting caught up in your own lies?
How many times do I have to post this link? Its not like the magical Dodge owns Titan name that has never been seen! Here it is AGAIN!
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http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....ounds.html
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Jason the question for the 2010 4Runner is still open? No comment on it?
Oh Jason your not asking for it on my behalf! Stop trying to change the words here! You say the 2010 Ram 1500 doesn’t comply with j2807. I proved the information saying it does. As it stands right now your wrong! You have nothing saying its wrong! But here is big kicker I provided the all the contact information for the gentlemen that made the statement. Twitter, who uses twitter? My daughter does! Still waiting on something more than a car salesman theory to prove that the statement on the 2010 ram was incorrect.
Greg did you ever get past the 5th grade? Apparently you either read what you want and deliberately skip or you actually can’t read. I put up and told you that was my latest I knew and the FACT I don’t follow Dodge. Now what part of that you don’t understand? The only one back pedalling is you Greg. You’re such a loser and being that way definitely made you a D/H.
greg – No one uses Twitter? That’s moronic. Twitter has something like 75 million users.
Don’t try and twist this around to fit your warped sense or reality greg – the bet is regarding the 2010 Dodge Ram 1500’s published tow rating of 10,450 lbs. I say it doesn’t comply with SAE J2807 standards because it doesn’t account for both a driver and a passenger. You say it does.
I tried to get you to put your money where your mouth was and bet me $100 (the loser donated it to charity), and you CHICKENED OUT. As Mickey says, you’ve spoken like a true loser. Count on me bringing this up often.
Also, in regards to why the tow rating on the 4Runner doesn’t change between models, I don’t know. It could simply be that there isn’t much of a weight difference between all three models. It could also be that Toyota is under-rating the vehicle.
It could also be some sort of Toyota conspiracy to lie to consumers…I’m sure that’s what you think it is, so why ask me?
When I get a response from Dodge’s PR people, I’ll share it. I don’t think anyone is working on the weekend, btw. You asking me for a result on a Saturday is further evidence of your foolishness.
greg (a.k.a the guy who chickened out on a $100 bet) – One more thing – I’m still waiting for your email address so I can CC you on everything. The fact that you’re unwilling to provide one means that either:
a) you don’t have an email address or
b) you have no intention of acknowledging your error or
c) you’ve got some paranoid delusion that sharing your email address will further the conspiracy you allege against me, Toyota, Cars.com, the federal government, or anyone else who says something you disagree with.
You can send me your email me here – admin@tundraheadquarters.com – anyone want to bet Greg chickens out on this challenge too?
Mickey – I think greg (a.k.a the guy who chickened out on a $100 bet) can read just fine. Why else would he avoid betting me? He read the article links I sent him, and he was scared to be proven wrong as a result.
Jason..maybe Greg is seeing that he can’t come on here and double talk, belittle folks, and dodge(play on words..lol) a good challenge. He used your personal credentials in an attempt to discredit you but he doesn’t reveal his own credentials. So what makes you a Toyota expert Greg????
I wonder if Greg is the same as the old anonymous that used to be on here. He gets pissed at me attacking his knowledge claiming I made that personal and look wghat he stated to Jason about his engineer degree. When Greg loses face he finds anything he can to lowball someone. Hence my ex-wife statement. He had to search for info on the ones who question him.
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Jason I passed on a link to add to that cars.com. It’s from NHTSA and it shows the Tundra on top. So Greg take that with a grain of salt.
Jason, so whats the answer? Are you going to share the response with everyone? mikbob42@yahoo.com So are you ever gonna answer my question about the fact Toyota has used inaccurate horsepower data (which is one reason for the SAE standard) and how the 2010 4Runner towing information is the same amount for the different models.
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Mickey the subject is not you. It also isnt the USA/Canada parts content. Stay on subject!
Now how does that feel Greg since you like to throw extra’s in on a subject? It only took you two weeks to come up with a email address. Like your statement before how can we tell you’re telling the truth? You have presented no credentials.
Since when do I need to provide credentials? I’m not writing the article, I provided information proving the article was incorrect. So you need credentials to say “the information provided in the article is incorrect and here is the information why”.
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My sincere apologies for taking so long to reply, this thing called having a life got in the way!
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Mickey those extras that I threw in are related to the subject.
“1. The engines haven’t improved enough to match the increase in tow ratings. The 2010 F-150 has a 5.4L V8 rated at 310 horsepower and 365 lb-ft of torque. The 1990 F-150 had a 5.8L, which was rated at 210 horsepower and 315 lb-ft of torque. While the horsepower increase since 1990 is significant (more than 67%) torque is what gets a trailer moving, and that hasn’t improved more than 15%.”
Tacoma horsepower went down in from 2006 to 2005 with out any changes. Oh Yhea the SAE standard took effect on tow to measure the horse power rating. It went from 270hp in 2005 to 240hp in 2006 with no mechanical changes. Funny They must have been providing inaccurate information to there customers.
4runner is SAE J2807 complaint but the different models have the same towing capacity, hows that work?
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Jason any of the information would be greatly appreciate, no big rush! I take it I was right until otherwise, would that mean you where hiding and providing inaccurate facts and data just like Toyota? Some call that lying!
Greg you are full of sh*t. You were the first complaining how long it took for me to reply before and now you state you have a life? Why is it you can take your time to reply and no one else can have that time? If you’re so called right there Greg and you question the article show your proof of your credentials in what makes you the subject matter expert. Pulling your little red wagon isn’t credential material.
Mickey, stop making it personal! Remember how offended you where before, don’t go there. Maybe you missed it before, so here it is!
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“June 20, 2010 at 8:16 pm Greg – You are absolutely incorrect in saying that the 2010 Ram 1500 meets the J2807 standard. First of all, there is nothing on the Ram website regarding this standard and the 1500” in regards to the following article I provided to Jason, http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....ounds.html
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“Jason says: June 24, 2010 at 1:51 pm greg – First of all, in regards to the fiasco that Toyota had with their HP ratings, I don’t deny that they mis-rated a lot of their cars. Honda and Toyota both have been accused of this multiple times”
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Mickey I would be upset also if I thought I was getting 381 horsepower and could in all reality be getting 340 horsepower! According to dynos it roughly 300hp to the ground where other engines of equivalent size are putting 340 HP to the ground. Sleep on that!!!! Oh hows that rust problem you had????
Jason still waiting, how long has it been? Over a week? Atleast man up!
First of all Greg you didn’t offend me with the ex-wife. Even when you couldn’t get the age right. You threw the younger age to try and get my goat but sorry Greg it won’t happen. Now I’m not going to believe a die hard Dodge fan who drives a Ford. Now that’s your credentials. I didn’t buy the truck for horsepower so try again on that. I didn’t buy my truck to race nor tow a heavy load. Greg I sleep quite well. Maybe you should answer that question since you’re so worried about your non made US truck. You’re the one that seems to be loosing sleep trying to get Jason to admit where he isn’t wrong. Rust problem Greg? You’re slipping trying to put the rust subject on my truck. Greg why don’t Dodge list it on thier website? Could this be because it may not be all true? If they did they would be held liable for lieing there Greg. You see it your way while others will see it another way. It’s sad to see that the manufacturer’s website don’t state it. So now Greg who keeps whining about this subject matter? Wasn’t it you that stated you had a life?
greg – Thanks for the email. I haven’t heard from what’s his name, but I’ll hit him up again tomorrow and I’ll call him too. I’ll also hit Twitter again.
As for your questions about HP, I answered them. You asked me and then you quoted me later…just goes to show you don’t read anyone’s comments. If you take the time to read what I wrote, you’ll find that I answered the 4Runner towing question as well.
You said “I take it I was right until otherwise” – I’m sure that’s true about most things in your life. If you weren’t so ignorant, you’d recognize that I’ve already proven you wrong. When I get a response from a Dodge PR person that confirms it, will you be able to apologize here for calling me a liar, insulting my credentials, etc.?
Finally, I’m glad that you’re not willing to share your background or credentials. If I were suffering from the same severe paranoia that you seem to suffer from, I’d want a little anonymity too. In the time that you’ve commented here, you’ve alleged that NHTSA, Toyota, Cars.com, me, and others I can’t remember right now are all lying, hiding the truth, etc. Here’s some reading material for you and your doctor! http://www.healthsquare.com/mc/fgmc2415.htm
Tomorrow when I have time I’ll go ahead and change your name on all your recent comments too. I didn’t forget.
greg – Just sent you three emails. Roger is no longer the PR contact at Chrysler for the Ram – it’s Nick Cappa now. Hopefully he’ll respond in a timely fashion.
Jason, how long are you going to stall. You are questioning pickups.com and doubting there creditbility from a Dodge spokes person. Here’s your sign! Your theroy of how the Ram is not J-2807 rated is that a theroy. I provided FACT, article and the point of contact for the statement that was made. What did you provided, a cars salesman theroy! You say I questioned all these sources, I quite possibly did. So where do you stand to day? We have seen how one source is good one and a is not creditable the other in your eyes. I like to call it the flavor of the day! So what is the NHTSA good now? Before you made comments about Lahood and the NHTSA, what’s the flavor today?
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Mickey, keep dwelling on the past! Move on.
Greg in your own statement you don’t trust what Toyota says. Isn’t the same here that Jason didn’t trust what Dodge stated? Why is it always it’s okay for you to doubt the source from a manufacturer but no one else can? Oh yeah you mention the past is because you are the one who’s been stalling now for what 2 months without providing the link or facts about how a Tundra had a runaway gas pedal. Now for your answer with Jason you only need to read your last two words you wrote “Move On”. They make signs after you Greg called “One Way”. So there’s your sign. When you decide to man up and answer with a link what was asked of you then you will always be the “Kid” with the “Red Wagon”. If you think it’s personal well that’s your problem.
Toyota has been a liar and has been covering up real safety issues for years. Why are they even still allowed to sell vehicles in the United States? tundra’s have had the same throttle issues since 2007 but Toyota has tried to keep it hidden. Why trust anything that these granny killers have to say now?? Besides, Dodge already follows the new standard so this article is pointless anyway!!!
Mickey, please grow up! Do you remeber the safety issues with Toyota? The ones they where hiding, the fact they stood infront of congress. Remeber how there word was in question? Now do you have anything stating Dodge had any problems recently with their intergrity? How about Toyota’s problem with HP rating when the SAE standard came out. Apperently their numbers where a little off just like someone said their towing number will more than likely be off! Now for the link, find it yourself! You can ask Toyota PR why they issued the recall if there wasnt a problem if you doubt them!
greg – Not stalling. Roger says that the truck passes the tests, but Nick is checking with the engineers about the rating.
You see greg, there’s a difference between doing the tests and the rating meeting the standard. If you understood that, you would have never taken things this far. Rest assured, I’ll post whatever info I get back from Nick, one way or another.
Also, unlike you, I’ll gladly donate $100 to Kiva.org if I am indeed incorrect. If you were willing to put your money where your mouth is, I wouldn’t have to edit your name in all your posts.
Mickey – I actually trust Dodge just fine. If you look at Roger’s statement, he didn’t say that the trucks RATING was J-2807 compliant. He only said that the truck was tested using the new standards. Dodge, Ford, and GM can test a truck using the new standards, but continue to use the old ratings until the 2013 model year.
No worries on the double post.
Jamie – I agree that Toyota has covered up safety issues, but what’s that got to do with anything? I’m not aware of any Tundra throttle issues either, and I’m still not sure what your point is. As for “granny killers,” I think that comment says it all.
Oh but inorder to pass the test you have to use the standards of the test, correct? Like this “Our engineers performed both simulation and real-world tests to ensure that all of our internal targets and all the guidelines set by the new proposed SAE tow standard were achieved.”
Heres another one for you! “Benvenuti also said Dodge truck engineers followed new testing protocols established by the Society of Automotive Engineers and a group of truck manufacturers to standardize tow testing, which covered in late 2007.”
Protocol: http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/protocol
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Good for you for the $100. Do the research next time and you wont have egg on your face and be worring about bets!!!! College did you good!
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Do engines say they are SAE 1349 or 1995 compliant? No so whats your point? Do you want a billboard stating “The 2010 Ram is SAE-2807 Compliant”, see Toyota has already did that with their HP. I see billboards all over the place stating 381hp but is it really? We know their past!
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“In 2005, the SAE introduced “SAE Certified Power” with SAE J2723[13]. This test is voluntary and is in itself not a separate engine test code but a certification of either J1349 or J1995 after which the manufacturer is allowed to advertise “Certified to SAE J1349” or “Certified to SAE J1995″ depending on which test standard have been followed. To attain certification the test must follow the SAE standard in question, take place in a ISO9000/9002 certified facility and be witnessed by an SAE approved third party.
A few manufacturers such as Honda and Toyota switched to the new ratings immediately, with multi-directional results; the rated output of Cadillac’s supercharged Northstar V8 jumped from 440 to 469 hp (330 to 350 kW) under the new tests, while the rating for Toyota’s Camry 3.0 L 1MZ-FE V6 fell from 210 to 190 hp (160 to 140 kW). The ES330 and Camry SE V6 were previously rated at 225 hp but the ES330 dropped to 218 hp (163 kW) while the Camry declined to 210 hp (160 kW). The first engine certified under the new program was the 7.0 L LS7 used in the 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Certified power rose slightly from 500 to 505 hp (370 to 377 kW).”
Jason so are you going to put that childish remark next to my name all the time? Its pretty childish! Did you learn it in college or the car business? Mickey, the double take was funny! Not as funny as “Kid” with the “Red Wagon”, thinking of ex’s when you wrote it? LMAO have a good day!
greg – You keep bringing up engine ratings, but that’s not what we’re talking about, is it?
I’m glad you can recognize the value in my willingness to put my money where my mouth is. Someday, maybe you will be able to do this yourself.
As I have said MANY times before, doing the tests and publishing a rating that conforms to the standard are simply two different things. I can test a truck using the new standard tests all day long, but I’m not obligated to use the rating system until 2013.
Have you read any of the articles I’ve linked to? They all explain very clearly the new ratings must account for the weight of a driver, passenger, and common equipment. Dodge’s rating specifically says that it only accounts for a DRIVER. That’s proof that it doesn’t meet the standard. Unfortunately, your lack of reason and my unwillingness to ignore your dumb ass means we’re waiting for Nick Cappa in Ram’s PR department to follow up with some engineers.
When I’m inevitably proven right, not only will you be the guy who is afraid to put his money where his mouth is, but you will be the guy who can’t process simple logic.
Of course, we already knew that, didn’t we?
P.S. I absolutely plan to change your name every time. People should know that you’re a troll before they engage with you. If you want to prove you’re NOT a troll, I’ll give you this one extra chance to accept my offer to make a bet. The clock is ticking.
Jamie where’s your link to the gas pedals on a Tundra? Proove to us where it was prooven fact they had a runaway Tundra. Didn’t think so. Just go ahead and say it that Greg put you up to it. Now as far as selling in the Tundra in the States who made you the ruler?
Greg like I figured you don’t have a link. Now who’s the liar there Greg? Can’t find the answer well Greg there was no answer. Grow up? Apparently like I said you can tell anyone here the crap you p[ut out and they have to have proof and as usual Greg you don’t have to. Again the liar speaks. You bring up Congress and Toyoda going there but still haven’t provided the link to your statement. You have been called out Greg and can’t provide the proof. Greg do what exactly as you stated. Go get that life. Quit being the Troll and use your own words GROW UP! You have become the Biggest Drama Queen to date.
Greg your link and sign: TROLL:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0ge.....wiki/Troll
Glad you like the kid with the little red wagon. To know your limit there Greg is when you use all wooden panels and put yourself in that red wagon you have reached your payload limit. Now as far as the Ex I haven’t thought of her. Since you like her so much go visit her in Mississippi. Now for the childish remarks there Greg if you would man up maybe the child in you wouldnb’t want to pull that red wagon.
Jason, Simply “throwing money against the wall” is
unacceptable.
This is comming from the guy who said that as of April 2010 Dodge was making the Titan and owned the titan name. You call people a kid and say they need to grow up? Didnt you get kicked of a Titan forum but you have never owned a Titan and then a Silveraldo forum? But im the troll!!! Talk about a double standard!!! All i did was point out the fact that this article was incorrect and is not the first half ton to meet the standard! Sorry, if you dont like it take it up with them!!!
So its ok to bring up horsepower as long as it isnt against the Tundra. You brought it up and now dont want to hear it. Remeber this
“1. The engines haven’t improved enough to match the increase in tow ratings. The 2010 F-150 has a 5.4L V8 rated at 310 horsepower and 365 lb-ft of torque. The 1990 F-150 had a 5.8L, which was rated at 210 horsepower and 315 lb-ft of torque. While the horsepower increase since 1990 is significant (more than 67%) torque is what gets a trailer moving, and that hasn’t improved more than 15%.”
You brought up Horsepower! Is it my fault Toyota has issues with publishing correct information? I dont see how!!!
Now for the bet!
Jason says: June 21, 2010 at 7:34 pm
“are you saying that the 2010 Ram 1500 is rated to the J2807 standard? YES…or…NO?”
Rated TO the J2807 standard, “Our engineers performed both simulation and real-world tests to ensure that all of our internal targets and all the guidelines set by the new proposed SAE tow standard were achieved”.
Jason says: June 25, 2010 at 9:33 am
“The bet: The 2010 Dodge Ram 1500’s maximum tow RATING does not conform to the J2807 standards”. I have provided information from Dodge so the way I see it is the problem is between you and Dodge! Call them out they said it. Thats why there was no reason for a bet, I already provided the information! Im sorry you couldnt find the article from last year saying that they already meet the guildlines!
If you need somthing proof read before producing invalid information let me know!
Greg
Mickey, Mickey, Mickey. Well since Im going to post the link issues with Tundra accelerating I will also provide some qoutes and a link that could have helped you!
http://www.aboutautomobile.com.....ed+Control
Also on http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/c.....esults.cfm
Now troll??
Why would you be on a Titan Site? “Hell I got banned on my second comment in a Titan forum when I mention I had a Tundra.”
http://www.tundratalk.net/foru.....post400320
“I was on my 3rd post when I got banned on a Titan forum. Silverado forum wouldn’t let me even mention what happen to the Silverado I had. I got warned with a ban over my head. It happens.” Its your story pick one 2 or 3???
http://www.tundratalk.net/foru.....post428622
There is alot of great information here, like how to get promoted!
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs.....motion.htm
From http://www.automobilemag.com/f.....index.html
“There are five engineering characteristics that strongly influence any tow vehicle’s performance:
The engine’s power and torque characteristics.
The powertrain’s cooling capacity.
The durability of the powertrain and chassis.
Handling characteristics during cornering and braking maneuvers.
The structural characteristics of the vehicle’s hitch attachment area.”
Notice anything wrong with Tundra meeting some of these chartacteristics?
-Engine power and torque- Well when J2737 was intruduced we seen what happened with the HP numbers of most Toyota motors. They went down due to inflating them!
-Durability of the powertrain and chassis- remeber the VVTI spring. A engine lasted what a month and maybe a thousand miles before needing extensive maintenance. Now the Air pump and valves that cost $4k and induces limp mode! Thats quailty!
-The structural characteristics of the vehicle’s hitch attachment area- Tundra has been around for exactly ten years. In those ten years they have found that the frame is inferior to say the least on the first model years! Well time will tell about the current years. Although rust has already been a issue! https://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2008/04/06/new-toyota-tundra-problem-bumper-and-lug-nut-rust/ If this link provides information you dont agree with please contact them, I didnt write it!
http://themoderatevoice.com/79.....e-problem/
They went there! LMAO
Greg – As I have said many, many times, just because Dodge did the testing doesn’t mean the rating they publish meets the standard.
As we have discussed, Ram’s PR people will settle this argument for us. I will send you a copy via email.
In the meantime, please stop wasting my time re-stating the same thing over and over. It’s getting annoying.
Again Anonymous/Greg which one are you today? Post a link that shows the facts Greg not hear say. There’s a difference Greg, I want proven facts like you did with the Titan name. So now Greg I will call you “Rerun” since you are the same old story.
Notice the difference there Greg I was on my 3rd post which was my last one there Greg. Yes you can call that a troll for 3 posts there Greg. How many you have posted here Greg? Don’t even try to compare me to you. You’re the drama queen. Same as the Silverado forum I owned one at the time. So I’m allowed there the minimum. Their rules was no one bashing the truck not mine. So since you have that issue then discuss that with them. By the way Greg I posted a whole 8x on that site also. As for the Titan club we had quite a few Tundra guys go to that club since they invaded Tundratalk. I was up front in what I had Greg. You of all people have no room to discuss anything about being a so called Dodge fan when you own a Ford and not a Ram. Who’s kidding who with that Greg? You’re the joke with that one. You can read all my posts on Tundratalk you want. Make sure you go through all 10700 posts I did. Greg for you a Troll does exactly what you’re doing. You’re trying to cause hate and discontent.
Now Greg do we have to list all the Ram’s issue’s? You’re playing the same game again. We can go round and round on your lower ball joints, brakes etc. You’re simply pathetic using the same old song and dance. Again Greg grow up! you just reach puberty.
I have one question…
Can a 2008-2010 Tundra Crew Max 5.7 with the tow package tow my 30ft trailer? It weighs close to 8,000lb fully loaded. I currently tow it with my Ford V-10.
Thanks for any thoughts and experiences…
30 footer – Yes, provided the weight you have is the correct amount and that the tongue weight is less than 1600 lbs (or so). Having said that, I think you’ll find that towing a 30′ trailer with a 3/4 or 1 ton truck is far more manageable than with a half ton. As I have said many times in the past, half-ton trucks aren’t big or heavy enough to tow such a big trailer.
Frankly, a 30′ foot trailer probably weighs in at more than 8k…I would get that number checked.
To all who are following this post: During the last month or so, one commentor (greg) has alleged that the 2010 Ram meets the SAE J2807 towing standard. Earlier today, I received an email from Nick Cappa, a PR person for Ram. His words:
“Just heard that the standard you are referring to is not finalized. Close but not final. That being said, no truck officially adheres to it.”
Put another way, that means “NO.”
Special thanks to Nick for taking the time to contact the Ram engineering team for an answer, and my apologies to anyone who had to endure my endless back and forth with greg.
To greg – You should have received an email in your inbox from Nick confirming everything I’ve written here.
I really wish you had been confident enough in yourself to bet $100 – it would be nice to see you pay for your ignorance, your assaults on my credibility and character, your attacks on my email etiquette, etc.
In any case, on June 25th, 2010 you wrote: “Be a man and admit your (sic) wrong”. Can you follow your own advice? 🙂
Jason good luck in getting Greg to man up. Good to hear from Dodge. I guess Greg won’t answer that email either. Now Greg about the Tarp report I mentioned earlier which “Foreign” automaker is Dodge going to follow? Again do you want some Chipotle to go with that Crow? What are your famous words there Greg? Is it “KARMA”!:)
Funny the standard you speak of (J2807) is not finalized, so why is Toyota advertising that the 2010 4Runner is in compliance? HMM the plot thickens!
http://standards.sae.org/wip/j2807
As for Manning up I was wrong and it appears Dodge is waiting for the final word before they will advertise the standard.
greg – I’m not sure why – the bet wasn’t about why the 4Runner claims the rating…the bet was about the Ram not meeting the standard. Thanks for acknowledging your error.
My guess – and this is only a guess – is that the J-2807 standard is all but complete. Often times these things have to be voted on by a committee before they’re officially “official.” I doubt that Toyota would advertise that the 10′ 4Runner meets the standard without having a very high level of confidence. Same goes for the 11′ Tundra.
By the way, Chevrolet is ALSO claiming to have a vehicle that meets the standard – the 2011 Silverado HD. Further proof that the standard is probably just waiting for a rubber stamp.
http://www.cars.com/go/feature....._silverado
First off I didn’t bet! Also isn’t the qoute about the HD Silveraldo very similar to the Dodge qoute that you had to contact their PR about?
“GM says the towing specs were calculated using SAE’s new industry J-2807 trailer towing standard that will eventually be followed by all truck manufacturers”.
http://www.cars.com/go/feature....._silverado
“Our engineers performed both simulation and real-world tests to ensure that all of our internal targets and all the guidelines set by the new proposed SAE tow standard were achieved.”
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2.....ounds.html
As you said it doesn’t say that they are complaint but that they used the procedures! There’s a difference! But the 2010 4runner says its complaint! So how can you be complaint with a standard that doesn’t officially exsist? Remember that last time a SAE standard came out and what happened with Toyota? I believe it was the horsepower standard. TOYOTA was so confident that they where over rating their engines! So your right I assume they are just as confident as they have shown in the past!
Could you please pick a standard and stay with it? If the comment would not surfice for Dodge why would it surfice for Chevrolet? You must be using the TOYOTA curve!
Oh Jason your welcome! Remember this statement from your article, “Dodge managed to increase towing capacity 15% between 2009 and 2010 after nothing more than a “ revision” in their calculations”? Now you know how they did it, seems like alittle more than a revision! Great article!!!!!!
Greg since you’re hindering on a specific word then Dodge would be considered a liar for their towing stadards. It seems they are no different than the rest about hiding facts. Now again Greg the TARP report. Which “Foreign” automaker you’re going to follow? I know you hate to answer that.
greg – I think you would be wise to let this go – you clearly don’t understand the topic.
An SAE standard for tow ratings is well overdue.
As a Dodge owner myself I can say that Dodge has hidden safety defects in their trucks. I owned one of the 2003’s which had improperly welded axle flanges resulting in a wheel separation from the vehicle. Hundreds of Dodge trucks in the USA and Canada experienced the issue and litigation is still pending for quite a few out there.
Currently looking at a new truck right now I see Ford and Chevy both tow substantially more than a Dodge. Especially if you move up to the 3/4 and 1-ton models. A standardized test across the board for comparison would help quite a bit especially as DOT is now enforcing the 10,001+ weight ratings on trucks with trailers.
Jason – I hear you on the need for a standard. Supposedly, all the manufacturers will adopt it by 2013. Having said that, GM’s HD trucks already meet the standard, and the 2011 Tundra will as well.
Jason I mentioned thsat as one of Dodges recall where the weld separates and ball joint comes apart.
There was an issue with Dakotas and Durangos where ball joint separation was a recall. The 2002 manufacturing change on the axle to flange welds was never a recall. Completely denied at all levels and had to be proven in court. Bottom line, Toyota might be taking the flack right now over their failure to disclose but ALL Of the manufacturers do it. Some just get caught. Some handle the PR better. I also suspect Toyota was taken to task more than other manufactuers in an effort to get sales back to other companies…
As a person who holds a Class A CDL and also owns a small business where a half ton truck towing a trailer must comply with DOT regs the towing certification is meaningful to me. Over the years I have seen and been through quite a few instances where that standard could have made a difference. It is typical game of upsmanship by the manufacturers. Ford announces one then comes Chevrolet over that. Dodge comes and trumps them both next year. Suddenly Chevrolet can haul more…
One half ton to another might be 2,000 difference in towing for similar vehicle across brands. There is a huge difference for the Class V mount ratings between three manufacturers – some 5,000+ pounds variation with Chevrolet announcing theirs at 18,000 bumper pull for 2011. Ford’s 2011 is down at 16,000. Dodge announced theirs first this year and is well behind both. I doubt that will be the case come 2012.
A 2011 Dodge Ram Crew Cab 4×4 with Cummins at 13,xxx fifth wheel against a 2011 Chevrolet Crew Cab 4×4 with Duramax at over 21,000 pounds is quite a difference as well.
While my Dodge Ram 1500 QuadCab 4×4 is rated to tow more than my father’s Dodge Ram 1500 MegaCab (both with 5.7L)by the book, his will do a better and safer job all around. All MegaCabs were on the HD frame with bigger brakes, suspension and axles. His 4.10 ratio to my 3.93 allows better performance as well.
Yet my Dodge made his F150 extended cab w/ 7700 package and 5.4L look pitiful when towing. Better braking, more stability, better mpg and obviosuly it would accelerate since the 5.4L is a pretty weak engine. Thus his purchasing the MegaCab.
Looking more at the SAE standards and what will be tested is surely going to make buyers more informed. That Toyota is willing to go ahead and comply years ahead of schedule says something in itself.
Jason – Interesting note on the Dodge ball joint separation recall.
I am sorry to hear, by Greg’s account, that someone should feel sorry for me for having purchased my 2007 Tundra. Considering that I am at 97k+ miles with ZERO problems (oh, and my first set of brakes made it to 80k miles with only the pads needing replacement, and yes I do tow…approx 4500 lbs). It has been the best truck and the best vehicle I have owned. I fully expect to purchase another Tundra after I hit about 225k on this one.
Troy – Awesome – glad to hear it.
listen im going to be very blunt toyota is way better then dodge everyone knows that your just mad that american cars are not what they used to be i own a dodge and a toyota by far toyota is better and i worked in the trenton engine plant for 33 years for dodge so plz greg shut up and i do mean that with all respect i own a 2003 dodge ram and a 1996 toyota land cr
Ok boys and girls…and Greg. Check THIS out!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Numbers are just that….numbers. Here’s some REAL WORLD comparisons. BTW, I traded my 2010 Ram 2500 TRX4 Cummins in on a 2010 Tundra DC Rock Warrior with the tow package, because the Dodge had its steering box and shaft replaced at 400mi, and it was still loose as a goose. It also had the rear differential carrier group replaced at 15,000mi and still had a horrible kick in the rear when shifting into drive. Love my Tundra.
or, how about THIS for towing:
Tundra comes in a CLOSE second towing up a 7.2% grade to a 6.2L Chevrolet at GM’s proving grounds!! Dodge comes in second to last… Sorry Greg. Manufacturers can revise the tests, ratings and numbers all they want, but REAL WORLD wins out…again…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJbfkNKkWFg
Hmmm, a 2008 video and a simulated video to support claims of “real world” use?
A half ton targeted for family use versus a 3/4 ton targeted for more power and abuse of a work truck? A rack and pinion half ton versus a gearbox for a 3/4 ton?
I am thinking there is going to need to be some further disclosure on “tests” before anyone starts accepting it as “real world.”
Take a Dodge Ram with a 3.55 axle ratio and it will be a dog when compared to a 3.92 or 4.10. Toyota’s 5.7, which is essentially a knock off of the GM V8, mates to a 6 speed slushbox (which is quite nice and that fluid heater is SMART) and 4.10 axle. It is much better engineered to keep the engine in the powerband. I’m guessing we don’t want to have a discussion about that 5.7 Toyota engine when it was first released and their failures?
Dodge “could” reprogram the 5 speed auto in the 1500 to have more gears for better performance. Ford has gone to a 6 speed (finally). I would hedge my bets that the Toyota box outlasts both.
No one product will please everyone or work for everyone’s needs. Buy the one which suits you and enjoy!
NOTE: That last comment wasn’t mine.
Also, thank you to Randy and Jason for commenting. I agree that videos meant to market a truck are inherently suspect, but Randy makes a good point: ratings don’t really matter anyways. All that matters is how they tow.
As for Jason’s comment that Ram could reprogram a 5 speed to be like a 6 speed, I think that’s a bit of an oversimplification. Obviously, there’s no substitute for more gears. Also, I don’t know of any 5.7 failures aside from about 20 camshafts that were recalled almost immediately after the truck was released. I know about other 5.7 problems (air injection, noisy pistons, etc.) but I don’t think they’re any worse than the problems found on Fords, Dodges, or Chevy/GMCs.
However, I wholeheartedly agree that everyone should buy the best truck for them. They’re all very good.
Kind of off topic, but the 5-45RFE in the Ram (and several others) is actually a Mercedes designed box. It has three sets of planetary gears which are computer controlled with solenoids instead of bands.
While the Ram is considered a 5 speed auto it actually has six (1st, two 2nd ratios, 3rd, 4th and 5th are both overdrive). There are test vehicles out there already running as a 7 speed.
Your 2nd gear ratios are slightly different. One is for the intial acceleration while the other is a bit higher for downshifts. When the Tow/Haul mode is activiated it eliminates that higher 2P ratio.
Dodge also runs a more “loose” torque converter so you don’t feel the cylinder de-activation on the Hemi.
I would pretty well bet the Toyota tranny will hold together much longer than the 545RFE unit. I know it runs cooler.
Most manufacturers have some issues when changing or releasing new products. Warranty. Toyota steps up in most cases and makes it right. Take your Toyota in for warranty work and often you will have a loaner vehicle or shuttle service. Don’t expect that from Dodge (or Ford or Chevy).
Look, Greg, I can do it too! I changed my name to impersonate someone else! 😀 You are a complete idiot, and aren’t fooling anyone.
Actually, thanks for the pathetically entertaining, desperate antics! Try to express yourself differently when you’re trying to use a different name…
-Randy
…and, btw, convince me (and everyone else) that the trailers and weight were simulated, Captain Failure… smoke and mirrors only works when you’re selling cars!
Jason F – Interesting comment about the transmissions. I had no idea the Ram’s 5 speed had two different 2nd gear ratios.
Call me stupid, but why wouldn’t Dodge advertise their truck as a six speed? Seems like that’s the kind of technicality a marketing team would exploit…
Also, in a somewhat unrelated note, I’ve talked to a service manager who’s worked with Dodge, Ford, GM, and now Toyota, and according to him Toyota’s transmissions are vastly superior in terms of repairs. When I interviewed John at Import Performance Transmission, he indicated that Toyota’s transmissions were better as well.
I realize of course this is all anecdote, but I think it’s interesting that I’m hearing the same anecdotes from different people… https://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/2010/08/27/interviewing-ipt-part-two/
Hey there.
I’m sorry for getting somewhat off topic here. I’m just curious about towing capacities. Have a 2010 Ford f150 XLT and am considering upgrading to the Tundra LTD 4×4. So – tow rating – means a trailor, truck and all passengers, plus what is in the bed of the truck?
Will be buying an enclosed trailor – said trailor alone weighs 3500 lb. 28 ft. long by about 8 wide. Would the tundra be a bad choice in towing this? We’ll probably add about 2500 onto the trailor. Would a 3/4 ton be better for this purpose? Each trip is around 100 or so miles.
Also – seriously Greg, get over yourself. It all comes down to preferences and being totally arogant and knowing nothing isn’t helping your cause any.
I just test drove a Tundra and loved it – the dodge was alright, but not my thing. I will say this for GMC – that Duromax is one of the smoothest shifting vehicles I’ve ever driven, though diesel here in Canada is quite pricy.
thanks for any input. It is greatly appreciated.
It is hard to say why Dodge does much of what it does these days. My personal guess is they are still caught up in the Hemi branding along with horsepower and towing wars. Just look at how SEMA was with Hemi… Ford and Gm pretty well kept the same tranny. Toyota and Nissan have six speeds but you don’t see them saying much about them. What I never understood is why Toyota did not make more of an issue of their auto trans heater.
Start a Dodge up and while it sits in Park the trans fluid is not circulating or warming. You have to put it in neutral or gear. Toyota had the insight to install a heater to warm the fluid up when it is cold. To the best of my knowledge they are the only company to do this. Makes quite a difference in transmission life – especially when towing.
What will be interesting is Hyundai getting into the game. Currently they are using Dodge Ram trucks and putting their own sheetmetal on them for testing purposes. They have stated they intend to build their own drivetrain including a V8. Much like Toyota, Hyundai has the engineering abilities and more $$$$ than they know what to do with.
Hyundai and Toyota could start spurning some serious innovations as they compete which will require the “Big Three” to step up or drop out.
Jake – I think that any V8 half-ton available will pull the weight of your trailer with ease. What concerns me is the length…a bigger truck might be more manageable in a cross wind, changing lanes etc.
Having said that, I’m seeing more and more half tons pulling trailers that were exclusively pulled by 3/4 and 1 tons just 10 years ago, so I think you’re fine with the Tundra, F150, Ram 1500 etc. If you can get a diesel, that would be even better.
Jason F – Had no idea about the transmission warmer. Thanks for the info!
Also, I agree with what you’re saying about Hyundai. They’ve got a great deal of cash and the ambition to match, and they’ve made noise about selling a full-size for a while now. I’m going to write a post about this for tomorrow, but here goes: What if Hyundai ends up buying Ram? I think it’s a distinct possibility.
To all you asian car loving usless piles of crap. Dodge is and alway will be the best car’s, and trucks ever built. Hell anything built in America is the best. If you like your asian crap move there and shut the f up about how good there craps is. If your a real American you would stand up and support America instead of japan, china or other asian countries. if asian cars are built better then why did they start building there cas in the usa if we americans did shuch a poor job? Because asian know the usa builds the best of everything.
me – Why is it that the least intelligent comments tend to be left by Dodge owners? LOL.
First, let me explain to you that Dodge is owned by Chrysler…which is owned by an Italian company called “Fiat.” This was part of the whole government bailout you might have read about in 2009. Since that time, buying a Ram has been sending money to Fiat. How is that better than buying from Toyota?
Second, the Tundra has 90% domestic content and is built at a plant in San Antonio. Toyota invested more than $1 billion in Texas at a time when Chrysler, Ford, and GM were laying off thousands of workers. American workers do build great products, including the Tundra.
Third, if Dodge is always the best, why did they have the worst quality ratings according to both JD Power and Consumer Reports during most of the last 30 years?
How about we add a few more facts to that?
Chrysler is not a global market player like GM or Ford. They sold out to Daimler-Benz (aka Mercedes Benz – Germany) in 1998 in an effort to become more global. The new company became known as DaimlerChrysler (German HQ and Michigan US HQ). Once the technology was gleamed from Chrysler, the cash reserves, along with sales of things like Lamborghini, Daimler’s Mercedes brand was strong again and they started to realize the union retirement liabilities coming and divested themselves the Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth and Jeep brands to Cerberus Capitol (NY HQ) in 2007.
Cerberus took the Chrysler brands straight into bankruptcy and compliments of their government ties managed to collect everything they paid out for the Chrysler brands plus billions more for their work bankrupting the company.
As part of the bankruptcy Fiat (Italy) was GIVEN control and partial ownership of the remaining Chrysler brands. Part of that includes splitting Ram Trucks into a company apart from the Dodge brand as Dodge is not expected to survive.
Dodge is built in America? Dodge supports America? The Dodge Hemi along with the Ram 2500 and 3500 trucks have been built in Saltillo, Mexico for YEARS. The Dodge Ram 1500 was produced in St. Louis (Fenton), Missouri and Warren, Michigan. Production at St. Louis was terminated during the bankruptcy process.
Under Fiat more production is being moved to NEW Mexican plants as the Central American market is where they expect market growth for the Chrysler and Fiat brands.
The foreign companies come manufacture in the United States because of the benefits they receive. Not only do they incorporate under US laws which provides them Federal tax incentives, they qualify for Federal money for development and loans, they receive huge tax incentives from state and local governments as well. Who do you think is paying for that? Want to talk about the BILLION dollar check Nissan got for electric vehicle development in Tennessee?
In many cases the US Dollar is weaker to the foreign manufacturer’s own market currency so that means they are able to get materials and labor at a cheaper rate than in their own countries. Volkswagen is an excellent example. Moving production to the US (Chattanooga)and Mexico they have been able to lower the sales price and still increase profits. Toyota is facing the issue of having to move production right now from Japan due to their strong currency.
Call me what you want but I have had five Dodge trucks (and some other Dodge vehicles) in the past 8 years. Managed to get several of my family members into Ram trucks as well.
I will also be out rallying against the unions and their 800 million dollar budget trying to force the foreign auto manufacturers to unionize in the US. You lose Toyota’s investments in US manufacturing and you will know it!
Jason F – A well-thought out comment to be sure. I agree with nearly everything you’ve written, and I appreciate the fact that you’re loyal to the Ram brand.
I rescind my remark about Dodge owners making unintelligent comments – very well said.
I sometimes question the brand loyalty. I never owned any Dodge (Chrysler or Jeep) prior to 2003. If the 2011 6.7L Scorpion Powerstroke was in a truck with had an appearance I liked or Toyota made a 3/4 – 1 ton there’s a good chance I would have it.
Ram Trucks was nice enough to ask me why I had not bought a new truck this past year. Then in response to my complaints about their towing being down they offered a gear option that gets the 3/4 ton towing up to match the Ford and GM offerings.
One of the Rams here is being replaced with the new F150 powered by the Yamaha twin turbo 6.
Have you heard whether the new Tundra might appear before MY2014 or if Toyota is still holding that date?
Jason F – To my knowledge, the new Tundra debuts in 2013 as a 2014 model.
I’m not reading this whole convo, but I did run across a comment I want to address. Dodge WAS going to make the next Titan. Nissan came to Dodge with a deal, but Chrysler then went with Fiat… Nissan can’t think too much of their truck if they were going to go to Dodge to build it.
Chase – That’s an interesting point. Do you think that maybe Nissan made that decision more because of profit than design? I’m not arguing, but I’m thinking Nissan is losing money on the Titan.
Yes, there was a tentative deal where Dodge was going to build the next Nissan Titan. When the bankruptcy came about and Chrysler was given to Fiat other issues arose and Fiat nixed the deal.
Titan sales and reliability are not very good. Full size trucks sales only Titan comes in lower than Tundra.
Since Fiat was given control Hyundai built a concept truck based on the Ram 1500 and were going to run with that but could not reach an agreement on how many units they would commit to with Fiat. So, Hyundai is going to do an entire truck themselves without Fiat.
Jason F – I’ve read a lot of the same articles that you have, but I hadn’t heard that Hyundai and Ram couldn’t work out a deal…everything I saw said they had never seriously considered a joint venture.
You got some insider info? Email me anytime! 🙂
Well this was a very interesting blog, I just could not help but participate.
me – You’re a riot, here’s a link just for you (if you can figure out how to use it). All of these have USA part content of 75% or above:
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/.....amMade0710
I’ve had a 2009 Ram before it was stolen and written off. Was a fun truck, wasn’t a huge fan towing with it. The new Rams have a great interior, my favorite interior of all of the new trucks. I had a 2010 Tundra after that. It was great for towing, 430 gears, slick 6-speed, and a beefy sway bar in the front. Tons of power and zero problems. I just traded it in on a new F-150 with that eco boost engine, wasn’t really board of the Toyota just like new trucks, (I’d have 1 of each if I could). The F-150 is a really nice ride, though I miss the snap of the Tundra’s V-8, but one the ford’s turbo spools, it really pulls.
I think under this new towing standard all truck tow ratings will have to be adjusted down. I give kudos to Toyota for manning up.
Blair – Great comment – sounds like you’ve had a lot of trucks! 🙂
I like all the options on the market, and I’ve yet to drive the EcoBoost but everything I hear is really positive.
Wow, I read through much of the responses sent in from the beginning and and was finding that there was more mudslinging than good truck talk. Appreciated what was of interest, but will only vivit this site once and hopefully leave you with some thoughts. I have owned both the 2010 Forerunner and a 2011 Tundra with the 5.7
I have towed with a variety of trucks and found that anything shy of a 3/4 ton should be deemed as “light duty” and should NEVER be argued about thier merits online! When I bought the Tundra, I looked at the “real tow vehicles” which are diesels, and 3/4-1 ton. Any half ton truck is a family mover, ;ight hauler and should be considered as such, in order to save the self admitted white knuckling we all know happens when you load these smaller trucks even close to their documented limits. I appreciate the defense of those with their chosen brands, but must admit that when I went onto this site, it was to compare overall satisfaction and quality vs verbatum on how hard we can overwork our light duty vehicles.
Its such as you read my mind! You seem to grasp so much about this, like you wrote the book in it or something. I feel that you could do with a few p.c. to pressure the message home a little bit, however instead of that, this is magnificent blog. A great read. I’ll definitely be back.