Tundra v. Ram — Part I: Mechanicals

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For our second comparison, we’re going to evaluate the Dodge Ram and the Toyota Tundra to see which truck is best. While we’re not going to evaluate EVERYTHING, we are going to compare the key components and highlight any distinct differences between the two trucks. As always, we encourage you to leave your comments (supportive or otherwise) about our review.

Let the showdown begin!


There are four engines available in a 2007 Dodge Ram 1500. A 3.7L V6 (typically found in a fleet or work truck), a 4.7L V8 Flex-Fuel, a 4.7L V8 Magnum, and a 5.7L HEMI. The HEMI, in addition to being one of the most powerful V8’s on the road, has a cylinder deactivation feature that shuts off half of the cylinders as driving conditions allow, reducing fuel consumption and improving overall fuel economy. Kudos to Dodge for incorporating this feature into their engine. Dodge also offers a flex-fuel engine, but we don’t think it’s much of a selling point. Because most people in the US have limited access to the flex-fuel “E85”, and because it is often times much more expensive than regular gasoline, the benefit of owning a flex-fuel engine is small.

Toyota offers a 4.0L V6, a 4.7L V8, and a 5.7L V8 — very similar displacements to those found in the Dodge Ram. But the similarities stop their — while all Tundra motors feature DOHC design and variable valve timing, the Ram’s engines are all pushrod designs (circa 1960)(CORRECTION: Dodge’s 4.7 V8 and 3.7 V6 are SOHC, only the HEMI is pushrod) that are incapable of the levels of performance and efficiency found in any of the Tundra’s engines when similar displacements are compared. Because of the dramatic engine technology differences (DOHC v. SOHC or Pushrod), the Ram is at a distinct disadvantage when compared with the Tundra.

The HEMI has quite a bit of power…345hp and 375 ft-lbs of torque, making it comparable to the Tundra 5.7L with 381hp and 401 ft-lbs of torque. We like the feel and the power of the HEMI. Because of it’s older push-rod design, it does very well on the low-end of the RPM range and that translates to decent off-the-line performance. While the new Tundra is definitely faster, the HEMI is very respectable.

The HEMI’s biggest downside when compared to the Tundra is fuel economy. EPA rating on an 07 HEMI Quadcab SLT is 14 mpg city and 18 mpg highway, but we must say this is GROSSLY overestimated. Based on personal experience, it can be difficult for this truck to average 12 mpg with the HEMI engine. Obviously fuel economy is affected by a lot of factors including fuel quality, driving habits, altitude and climate, etc., but it’s clear to us based on other reviews, posts we’ve read in forums, and first-hand knowledge, the HEMI loves to consume fuel at an alarming rate. This is a big downside to the HEMI. Assuming a new Tundra averages 16 mpg (we’ve seen higher) and a new Ram 12 mpg (we’ve seen lower), the Ram will cost 30% more to fuel. Even if you give the HEMI the benefit of the doubt in terms of fuel economy, it is still less powerful, making the winner in this category easy to choose.

WINNER: Toyota. Decent performance makes the HEMI worthy of recognition, but that recognition is overshadowed by poor fuel economy as a result of the old push-rod engine design.


The Dodge Ram is unique in that it is the only truck on the market to offer a 6 speed manual transmission with a V8 in a half-ton. Unfortunately, this manual transmission is only available with the 4.7L V8, making it a feature that most people won’t choose. With the HEMI, the only transmission available is a 5 speed automatic. The Tundra also offers only one transmission choice with it’s most powerful engine, a 6-speed automatic with the 5.7L. When it comes to transmissions, more speeds are better. Combine the Tundra’s extra gear with a tow rating that’s more than 2000 lbs higher, and it’s clear that the Tundra’s transmission is superior.

WINNER: Toyota. Six speeds are better than five, and the higher tow rating indicates the Tundra’s transmission is stronger.


Both the Ram and the Tundra offer 4-wheel disc brakes, but that’s the end of the similarities. The Tundra has 4-wheel ABS, the Ram only rear wheel ABS (unless you purchase a MegaCab or upgrade the system for $$, then you’ll have 4-wheel ABS). Also, the Tundra’s rotors are all ventilated while the Ram has ventilated rotors in the front only. Some may argue that because the front brakes are responsible for 90% of a vehicle’s stopping power, the rear rotors don’t need ventilation. While we agree that is true, we don’t understand why the Dodge’s rear rotors are larger than the front (13.9 inch solid rotors rear, 13.4 inch ventilated rotors up front) but not ventilated. Both trucks also offer electronic brake force distribution.

Taking the specs and setting them aside for the moment, measured stopping distances are fairly similar. A 2004 Ram QuadCab SLT 4×4 stopped from 60mph in 135.6 feet (empty). The most recent test of a similarly equipped DoubleCab Tundra Limited 4×4 stopped from 60mph in 131 feet (empty).

WINNER: Toyota by a mile. While the Ram and Tundra basically tied in terms of stopping distance, we think the lack of 4 wheel ABS, smaller diameter front rotors, and non-ventilated rear rotors will result in brake fade while towing, hauling, or during long trips. Toyota’s superior components win out here.

Tundra’s partially boxed frame is still a question mark when compared to the competition. While Dodge offers a head -to-toe fully boxed frame, it also has fewer cross-members than the Tundra. Without knowing the moments of both frames it’s hard to say which is stronger but we’re willing to bet the Ram’s frame is tougher. However, because the Tundra is built by arguably the most successful car company in the world, we’re inclined to give Toyota the benefit of the doubt here. For the record, we think the Tundra should have a fully-boxed frame to better measure-up to the domestics.

WINNER: Dodge. Fully boxed frame is better than partially boxed frame, even if the partially boxed frame is built by industry stalwart Toyota.


Toyota and Dodge have similar payload ratings in the DoubleCab 4×4 & QuadCab 4×4 configurations. Toyota’s max payload is 1,580 lbs, the Dodge 1,500 lbs. While both trucks are available in a configuration with a higher maximum payload rating we don’t think the max numbers are going to matter to anyone who isn’t a commercial user. For a typical daily driver, payload capacity is only half of the issue. Payload accessibility and utility are just as important, and we think the Tundra edges out the Dodge.

For starters, the Tundra has a tailgate assist feature that makes opening and closing the tailgate easy — even if your hands are full. Second of all, Tundra’s cargo box is deeper, increasing the amount of “stuff” you can fit in the back. Third, the Tundra is rated higher. In defense of the Ram, we really like the Dodge’s “Activgate” cargo management system — if this system was a standard feature the Ram would have beat the Tundra out in this category.

WINNER: Tundra, but it’s too close to matter. Like we’ve said in the past, for a lot of truck buyers, payload rating isn’t a huge concern.


When a truck has a stronger, more powerful engine, it will typically pull more than a truck with a less powerful engine. That couldn’t be more true when comparing the max tow ratings of the the Dodge Ram and the Toyota Tundra. The Tundra is listed as having a max tow rating of 10,800 lbs, the Ram 1500 only 8,750 lbs — of course, these are for the work versions of these trucks. When the typical “average joe” versions of the trucks are compared (say a DoubleCab 4×4 to a QuadCab 4×4, both with the big V8’s), the difference is the same. The Tundra pulls 10,300 lbs in this configuration, the Ram 8,500 lbs. While the Ram’s rating certainly puts it on par with other trucks in the segment, the Tundra wins by almost 2,000 lbs.

WINNER: Tundra.

In conclusion, we like the Ram’s mechanicals a lot. For starters, the HEMI is a powerful engine that gets up and goes. We like that Dodge offers a 6-speed manual with it’s smaller V8, and we like the fully-boxed frame. However, Tundra is more powerful, a better tower, and it’s a more sophisticated design than the Ram. We think the Dodge has a severe shortcoming in terms of fuel economy…we’ve seen the HEMI get as low as 8 mpg before (lead foot, it’s true) but 8 mpg is unacceptable under ANY circumstances.

Check back for the second part of this comparison, Tundra v. Ram — Part II: Features and Pricing.

Filed Under: Toyota Tundra Reviews and Comparisons

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  1. paul says:

    A fully boxed frame is not necessarily better than the Tundra box/reinforced “C” section. The real tests are: 1) strength & 2) stiffness comparisons. Remember that cost is king. The ability to extrude a tapered-wall box is more difficult (costly) than using different stiffening inserts for the C section. Thus, you can easily increase strength/stiffness for different applications (vehicle sizes & ratings).

    On first blush, every one of us would pick a box over a C section. BUT…do you think the Toyota engineers didn’t optimize for cost, adaptibility, and structural performance based on detailed analysis? I doubt it. Bottom line is performance. Get the data and let’s see.

    As an aside, the selection of a C section may increase frontal crash performance compared to a full box.

  2. Dusty Kramer says:

    In case you weren’t aware, the 545RFE automatic transmission that’s used behind the 4.7 and 5.7 Hemi engines have six forward speeds. Five are used in sequential shifting, but for kick down has an alternate second gear which improves accelleration.

    As far as towing capability, many will tell you that the truck manufacturers are playing the numbers game. Many wouldn’t even attempt to pull 10,000 pounds in a half-ton pickup despite the rating.

    As to the comments about the Hemi fuel consumption, come on guys! The only thing gross about the Hemis fuel consumption was your exageration. You know as well as anybody that the EPA test is the only fair comparison between vehicles. I know many RAM owners that typically get 14-15 MPG around town. It’s how the vehicle is driven. I had one of our company’s maintenance trucks for better than a week and that Hemi delivered just over 16.

    The new Tundra sounds like a nice truck, and I guess it would be a little too much to expect you guys to be completely objective. But you could at least try.

  3. Bob says:

    I have an 06 RAM Laramine 4X4 quad cab with all options including side curtain airbags as well as the upgraded Electronic AWD. It averages 14 to 15 in town. Just took a 1000 mile trip, set the cruise and the average on the trip was 19.3. The trick is using the cruise which allows the MDS to operate at peak performance. By the way I have the new IPOD interface kit with the factory Nav system. It works flawlessly including the steering wheel controls. Bottom line, its a matter of choice. I paid 32,900 for the truck which had a sticker of nearly $44K so I would say value is in the eye of the beholder.

  4. Dave says:

    A few points.

    1) Fill the tanks – go for a drive in both trucks. The HEMI MDS allows me to get 18-20MPG at 60-65MPH (no head or tail wind / QC/4×4). 13-14MPG city (not stop and go). Note that this is with Goodyear all-terrain 275/70R17 tires.

    2) My 06 QC definitely has 4-wheel ABS (wish it didn’t – it really lengthens stopping distances in the snow).

    3) Ram 1500 dry weight is 5400lbs. Not sure if I would want to try for double that when towing – the tail would wag the dog. Need a 3/4T for that…

    4) Towing commentary: “it (Hemi) does very well on the low-end of the RPM range and that translates to decent off-the-line performance.”

    When I towed a 16′ flatbed trailer weighing 7,000lbs (plus 1,000lbs in the box) – I got just under 15MPG on a 130 mile trip. You need low-end to tow properly. Towing my 6,000lb 26′ 5th wheel – 12MPG @ 55MPH. The tall box will make it very difficult to hook up a 5th – unless you lift the 5th wheel.

    All-in-all – the new Tundra is an interesting vehicle. Test-driving a few trucks and comparing them objectively will allow you to make the best decision.

    When my lease is up in 2009 – I will be sure to have a look.

  5. Eddie says:

    How about tundra vs RAM 3500 or 4500 or 5500 with the new cummins engine???

  6. admin says:

    All great comments — thank you.

    A few points:

    Fuel economy is relative to driver, climate, fuel quality, etc. It’s fair to say that the numbers we listed in our comparison may be lower than what some of you are getting, but it’s also fair to say that the Ram has NO CHANCE of matching the Tundra in terms of fuel economy because the engine technology is inferior. Nothing against the HEMI (we like it just fine) but it’s not as modern as the Tundra 5.7L and therefore not going to be as efficient — all things being equal.

    I like the point about not towing 10k lbs with a half-ton — I agree. That’s a lot of trailer for a 6k lb truck. In an ideal world, the trailer would weigh no more than the truck. But, if that were the case, no one would be able to tow over 10k lbs without investing in a medium duty truck like an F650. Fact is we’ve all pulled trailers that weigh more than the truck and done just fine. The Tundra is no exception.

    Finally, why not compare the Tundra to the 3500+ Ram with a diesel? The answer to THAT question seems sort of obvious to me…

  7. Dave says:

    Both trucks are rated the same according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov. 14mpg city / 18mpg highway.

    In Canada, the Ram 1500 w/MDS is rated at 20.8 miles per US gallon on the highway. No data on the ’07 Tundra as of yet.

    From what I have heard, the new 2008 EPA fuel economy standards should give the nod to the Ram 1500 w/MDS.

    Chances are getting better all the time…

  8. scott says:

    Overheadcam engines are not more modern.Aircraft engines have used them from the 1930’s,probably before that.whether pushrods or overhead cams operate the valves,It really doesn’t make that much of a difference.Overhead cam engines just cost alot more repair.

  9. Chuck says:

    I own a new 5.7 Tundra. Other than changing shocks to improve the ride, I find it just perfect. I have driven many 4 wannabe 8 cylinder motors and have never been happy with any. My 02 Cad looses 10MPH climbing a grade near my home before it finally gears down. I have learned to just dump the throttle half way and then back-off a little to maintain a reasonable speed. My toyota is smoooooth. This Cad is my last front driver, 4 wannabe 8 cylinder. Never again. Anyone who says push rods are as good as a computer controlled DOHC is resisting reality.

  10. Rick says:

    It seems interesting to me that the Tundra is adopting many of the same things that the Ram has (or has had). 2 things to ponder:

    1. The 5.7L of the Tundra is the same size engine as the 5.7 HEMI…what? There aren’t other sizes?

    2. The Extended cab of the Tundra is almost the same idea of the Dodge Megacab…great creativity

    Tundra’s R&D needs to start creating their own ideas instead of copying ideas that Ram has. I like it when companies create ideas on their own…like the MDS fuel saving, or Honda’s compartment under the bed of the truck.

  11. Mike says:

    If the Ram has all pushrod engines I’d like to know what those timing gears and cams are doing on top of my 4.7 V-8’s heads.

  12. admin says:

    Mike — thank you. Our mistake — the 4.7L and 3.7L engines found in the Ram are both SOHC and not pushrod. The article has been edited.

  13. Glenn says:

    I think people need to quit making excuses. test drive the Tundra it will speak for itself. I dont not need to boost about its power. If your in doubt just drive your truck that was valued at 42, 000 but you only paid 32,000 American truck down there and ask how much he will give you on trade in. You will be suprised like I was on my Ford. The new tundra will rock any truck out there on speed with or without cargo. Lets be realistic it’s a Toyota. Can you go wrong with a name like that?

  14. Joe says:

    I have a 2005 Dodge ram 5.7 hemi, Fram boost 2 cold air intake and a set of true dual flowmaster exhaust, that eats gas but can out run any other truck on the road. I challenge any toyota tundra to try and out run my truck.

    DODGE 4 Life

  15. Vick says:

    I am getting ready to buy a travel trailer and truck. Want something very reliable (this is a huge purchase for me)to be able to tow 5500 lbs. without overburdening the engine uphill and still get decent mpg when towing and not towing (to me, decent in a big truck is at least 20 mpg when not towing). It’s amazing the number of differing opinions out there: The Dodge 2500 Turbocharged Cummins Diesel gets a lot of praise for power and gas mileage from owners–I’ve seen many posts claiming 20mpg + empty and 14-15 towing more weight than I would, but none of the Big Three trucks have good consumer reports ratings. On the other hand, the Toyotas (Tundra and Tacoma) both have great consumer reports ratings, but I don’t see any postings from Travel Trailer owners who own these vehicles to be able to report on the power and mpg when towing and the mpg on the Tundra looks dismal even when not towing. I want the Toyota reliablility but also good mpg and tow power. This article doesn’t seem to have actually tested the tow power and mpg of either vehicle–only going on what manufacturers say–without actual road tests, who really knows which is better?

  16. admin says:

    The only kind of truck that we know of that gets 20mpg empty and 14-15mpg loaded is a diesel from Dodge, GM, or Ford. Diesels have a lot of advantages over the Tundra in addition to better fuel economy…much more power, unaffected by altitude (up to 10k feet), and with your 5500 lb load you’ll feel very comfortable.

    We like Fords, but its hard to justify $40k+ for a diesel that’s had so many launch problems (spitting fire, sales holds, etc.). The Dodge has an EXCELLENT motor, but the rest of the truck is so-so.

    Our advice to you is to wait 6 months to a year and see which manufacturer does best in the next CR buyer’s guide.

  17. Vick says:

    Thanks for your response. Despite the rave reivews of many diesel owners of the Cummins TCD, overall, none of the “Big Three” American makes inspire enough confidence (i.e. in terms of all the other parts of the vehicle, of which there are, after all, many), so we are going to downsize our TT weight enough to pull it with a smaller, more mpg efficient vehicle–there are many excellent ultra-lights on the market, and more being produced every day that will meet our needs for something that provides the amenities we want with a small enough footprint to be feasible. Though we may end up lacking the diesels’ towing power, we’ll end up with something that gets relatively better gas mileage most of the time. I am of the opinion that auto manufacturers have the technology to produce much higher efficiency mileage right now and that with enough consumer demand, they will–after all, many of the same manufacturers who market vehicles here have much higher efficiency equivalents in Europe, because they are mandated to do so by European standards.

  18. Jonathan says:

    Too bad the Hemi is ranked for 5 years in a row by Ward’s as a ten best engine and Toyota’s I Force piece of garbage is cracking crankshafts among other issues.

    Oushrod design will stand up to tremendous abuse oh and by the way the Hemi is 5 years on the market already I am sure a redesign will bump it past the I Force.

  19. Dave says:

    Last trip – I had a ton+ of payload, some city driving and a decent headwind – avg: 17 miles per US gallon. Pure highway – no payload – 60MPH 19-20MPG is no problem. I get 11-12MPG towing my 7,000+lb (when loaded) 26′ 5th wheel at 55MPH. These are all in the range of what diesels deliver. The difference comes in when towing extreme weight – or when you want to drive at 75MPH when towing. With truck engines, the simpler the design, the higher the reliability. Also – timing chain is the only way to go.

  20. MikeV says:

    Just finished a 3000km trip.

    2007 Dodge 1500 5.7 w/ now, 8000kms

    Empty, 1500kms..
    Tons of power… 21mpg. I set the cruise at 110kmph for the praries and was never passed going through the mtns.

    4800lb Trailer, 1500kms.
    If I was smart about towing, and kept it from dropping into 4th gear (4000rpm @ 110kmph), I was able to maintain 10mpg. I did 1 tank where my goal was to maintain 110kmph and do some passing… I got 6mpg… Needless to say, I changed back to how I was previously driving. 🙂

    Mileage was calculated over the course of the trip. Each time I fuel I calculate it. Your fuel mileage is like a window into the health of your truck.

  21. mike says:

    all is well and good with the technical talk but i personally think that the tundra is ugly as hell

  22. Ron says:

    Just completed a 2800 mile trip to Alaska with 5.7L Tundra towing 6500lb travel trailer(gross weight). Inadequate power and dismal gas mileage-7.7. Took to the Anchorage dealer and everything checked out OK-What a POS!!!

  23. Whit says:

    I have an 05 1500 ram with a 5.7 hemi. It has excellent power and beautiful styling. And by the way, I paid almost 10 grand under book for it. A buddy of mine bought an 07 5.7 tundra without a time tested engine and pays well over $200 a month more. Not worth it to me. I’ll take my dodge any day. The Japanese may be number 1 in sales but there was a definite reason why they lost the war. Good old American ingenuity and horsepower can’t be touched.

  24. Justin says:

    Couple things I noticed? Why mention the Flex Fuel on the Dodge but not the Ford review? Also, you state E85 is higher $ than Reg. Gasoline, but is on average 60-80 cents cheaper than Reg. Gasoline. You do get less MPG’s out of it (I experience a 1-2 mpg loss), but it is also an American product that has a much better octane rating (105) even the racing fuel that is 100 octane. Cleaner burn and less green house gases. So your point of E85 being a non-issue shows a little bias.

    As mentioned, the 4.6L/5.4L Ford and 5.7L Dodge have each been on Wards 10 best engines list multiple times during the last decade. While the largest motor Toyota has shown on the list is the 4.0L. So yes the Toy 5.7L has powerful, but this alone does not make it a better overall engine for 1/2 ton trucks than what the other makes provide.

    You state the Dodge won the frame contest because it’s fully boxed, but then say in the F150 comparison that it’s a toss-up but will give the win to Ford to keep it close, even though the Ford is Fully Boxed?

    And again the max tow rating is an arbitrary figure. These are manufacturer estimates and have no statistical data supporting them their ability. Until you actually test these trucks at their max, you’re just taking someones word for their capabilities. Which I learned long ago not to trust everything a manufacturer says. As stated before, how many 1/2 ton owners would actually attempt towing 10K+?

  25. admin says:

    Justin — thank you for your comments. We’ll try to address them as best we can.

    First, we think the flex-fuel isn’t important to most people because it’s hard to get — most cities have few E85 gas stations. For example, here’s a link to the stations offer E85 in Denver — http://e85vehicles.com/e85-colorado.htm — only 8 stations for a metro area with approx. 2.4 million residents makes it kind of a non-issue for us. While Denver is only one example, most people in major metro areas don’t have convenient access to E85 (in fact congress has made this fact justification for supporting E85 subsidies).

    You’re right about the frame issue and our inconsistency across reviews. The Ram’s frame isn’t automatically a win. However, given the Tundra’s complete superiority in our comparison, we felt it was best to give the Ram the benefit of the doubt.

    Finally, while tow ratings may be arbitrary figures in your mind, most attorneys will agree that towing more than the manufacturer’s suggested limit makes you individually liable. While we don’t necessarily suggest towing 10k with a half-ton, we don’t see any reason not to acknowledge Toyota’s higher rating. Besides, it’s safe to assume the new products from Dodge and Ford will have ratings similar to the new Tundra. In another year or two it won’t matter…

  26. Justin says:

    Admin: Thanks for the reply.

    To most people at the current time, E85 may not be important. But as it becomes more common, I’m sure people would like to have the capability rather than not. Kind of a bonus feature they never intended to use. Now myself & many I know who own a flex-fuel, will drive out of their way to purchase E85. Not only for the cost savings (which may not be huge with the decrease in MPG’s), but also to support US companies more than OPEC, is rated at 105 octane providing a cleaner burn & produces less green house gasses. Even the local papers (Rocky Mtn News & Denver Post) have released articles showing people who don’t own flex fuel vehicles are running E85. This may be bad in the long run for their vehicle, but it shows there is a demand for the lower price. So it may not be a huge selling point currently, but is an advantage.

    Never stated the Frame was an automatic winner, just it’s hard to take reviews for face value when there are inconsistencies. Also if you find the Tundra so superior, why would you give the Ram “the benefit of the doubt”? If you felt the Ram or Tundra frame was better, simply provide more detail as to why it is superior.

    I understand Toyota has tried to up the bar in the 1/2 ton segment & so far it looks to have done so very well. Yes it is unwise to tow more than the manufacturers suggestions, but this is only a suggested limit with no hard figures/tests proving it can or cannot hold these types of loads, especially on some of the mountain passes here in CO. Most likely the ’09F150 will have a rating similar if not higher than the Tundra, but I still would not recommend towing 10K+ in any 1/2 ton, that is more the range for a 3/4 & 1 ton. Again how many people who do purchase a 1/2 ton actually tow anywhere near the max or even know the tow rating? Most people who know a thing or two about trucks and use them for a lot of heavy towing are usually wise enough to bump up size levels. This is why most the Farmers/Ranchers her in CO use a 3/4 if not a 1 ton for their hauling and the 1/2 ton as their ranch hand vehicle.

  27. admin says:

    Justin — we’re on the same page when it comes to towing — 10k with a 1/2 ton is too much. A 3/4 or 1 ton is better.

    Hopefully Toyota will bring one out soon.

    We’ll work on improving our reviews — thanks for your critique.

  28. Dave says:

    Just purchased an 07 Tundra extended cab 4X4 with the 5.7L. I couldn’t be happier. Being a loyal Ford man, I was a little skeptical about crossing over to the Toyota, but after checking out this truck it was obvious that this truck was top choice. The big three definately have something to be worried about. Their 1/2 tons are not in the same league. The best thing about is that it’s every bit as American made as any of the other trucks out there. As far as speed and power…well it smoked a Dodge Hemi yesterday…

  29. Gary says:

    I blew the doors off a Hemi last week with my 1970 Chevy Blazer and I get about the same MPG. I would’nt mind giving your Tundra a run!

  30. Rod says:

    Yea, American Made Toyota, with ALL the profits going over the pond. Get real.

  31. admin says:

    Rod – all the profits go to the shareholders. Some of them live overseas, and some of them live right here in the U.S.

  32. USCARSUCK says:

    Toyota creates jobs in the US, so no matter who is at the top running the show, US workers still get to bring home the bacon and buy things that fuel our economy. More and more “US” car makers are moving their plants south of the border and cutting jobs here in the US, so when you go buy your next MexiDodge think about who you are feeding, not to mention the fact that a Toyota is just built better. I will admit that my old Japanese built Toyota was way more reliable then my new US built truck, We are lazy worker who don’t care about workmanship, Sad.

  33. ricqik says:

    No one seems to see notice the fully box frame of the ram is also near twice as thin as the tundra’s “C” frame. Is a boxed frame really stonger than a “C” frame if it is twice as thin??

  34. ricqik says:

    No one seems to see notice the fully box frame of the ram and others is also near twice as thin as the tundra’s “C” frame. Is a boxed frame really stonger than a “C” frame if it is twice as thin??

  35. Bob says:

    I just traded my piece of @#$% Dodge in for a Toyota Tundra. Apart from the Cummins that truck was junk. From the word go I had nothing but problems. I finally had it when the transmission went out at 42000 mi. As far as the Tundra I dare you to find a half ton pick up that drives better. Has tons of power, and I would even go as far as to say it actually drives like a 3/4 ton PU.

  36. John says:

    The guy who said towing 10,000 lbs. with the Tundra know nothing about what he speaks. I pull my 26′ Toy Hauler at 10K plus pounds all the time with my Tundra and it does a wonderful job. Plenty of power (no problem passing, I’ve gotten to 85 MPH and could have gone faster in passing). It’s a pull behind with weight dist. hitch.
    Up hill or down it picks the perfect gear and keeps on truckin. The water and trans temp stays the same with or without the trailer even on 100 degree plus days. Toyota over designed the cooling system for the engine and trans. Who could ask for more.
    P.S. I’ve spanked a few Hemi’s. Most won’t even try.

  37. Justin says:

    John, Yes you can tow 10K+ lbs with almost any 1/2 ton on the market with the larger displacement engine (most manufacturers have reasons not to suggest towing that amount), it just isn’t the wisest thing to do. Carrying a load almost twice the weight of the vehicle isn’t all about the get up and go. Stopping is important, which the Tundra has been well equipped for this with the larger brakes. But you must also take into account the control of the vehicle. Pulling a load that is twice the weight of the truck, even with a weight distrubution hitch, can be a task during windy conditions and on declines. When your load is trying to pass you coming down one of the 7K-11K foot Mtn passes here in CO, you’d understand why towing anywhere above 9K in a 1/2 ton isn’t the best idea. So I’ll agree 10K+ can be done, but only in the right circumstances, not every situation.

  38. Sam says:

    I don’t often comment but felt I had to this time. I drive a Hemi Ram and we just picked up a Tundra for my wife cuz she thought it was pretty. The 381 horse power that they claim is at at 5600rpms which is high compared to the Dodge. There is no low end acceleration and believe me you can feel the more powerful HEMI. As far as faster, ha my buddy and I took em out the the HEMI smoked the tundra in any distance. I disagree with your findings.

  39. LD says:

    I’ve owned every make and model of truck on the market including a Toyota when they were still called the mini truck prior to the Tacoma. I am a HUGE fan of Toyota because I punished that little truck and it never went to the shop. I’ve had good trucks and bad trucks and my Tundra which came home a couple of weeks ago is a great truck. However, my Dodge was a great truck also and better in alot of ways. I agree with some of the findings and disagree with others. It’s preference.

  40. Mark says:

    I agree with Bob, I drive a $42,000 Ram which I paid 34,000 for. It has every option a truck can have including dvd and navigation and it works perfectly. Nobody is going to beat the Dodge rebates so as he said value is in the eye of the beholder.

  41. Justin says:

    Sam: Just curious, does your wife have the 5.7L or 4.7L? I’d assume it’s the 5.7L since you refer to the 381HP. Now it’s funny your refer to the Tundra making max HP at 5600 RPMs, because the 5.7L Hemi makes max HP at 5400-5500 RPMs. So to me, 381HP @ 5600 vs 345HP @ 5500, the Tundra still would have the advantage. Not a Ram or Tundra owner, but every review I’ve read has the Tundra out running every other make/model 1/2 ton, so if you’re shooting us straight, then there is something wrong with your wifes Tundra.

    LD: You are correct, every truck has its good and bad points. I too agreed and disagreed with many of the points made, but it’s all in what a person likes and wants.

  42. trenton says:

    Look this rev is crap I have a dodge 07 with the hemi I have put 10,000 mil on it and last week I drove it 3,000 and got 17.5 to 18 per galon. I have raced a nissan titan no contest. I have tryed to race a Tundra but no takers yet. They said they hope the Tundra gets 18 they dont even know yet. It wont do any beter then the Dodge. If you take price vs horse power Dodge wins you can by a lot of gas for 7 to 10 dollers. I have since put a K&N air kit duled the pipes and supper chiped it I should be ready to the Tundra with 385 h and 415 t. For a lot les money. I and put a nice 4wheeler in the back of mine and still be riding for less. Any one with a Tunda wont to have a go?

  43. Anonymous says:

    Gary I would like to see how fast your chevy fades in my Hemi’s rearview. You should tell the Guy in the Hemi next time that you are racing then maby he will try. I Could out run a corvet racing like you. Trust me the Hemi do’s not drink like your chevy sorry.

  44. JOE says:

    Trenton, if you are in the san antonio area id love to show you what my DC can do. Ive never owned a hemi only because they didnt make them in standard back in 03, then i got rid of my 2000 cummins for my new tundra. I have lost a race against a Hemi but keep in mind that it was a 2 door with the least options available and no tailgate or spare. We raced at the track and he beat me by .07 seconds. I believe he ran a 14.86 at the 1/4 mile.
    My last hemi kill was a 3500 scsb with a hemi, so that goes to tell you that weight plays a huge roll. I dont know where im going with this but yea both trucks are good, I believe the tundra has the edge on it though

  45. Marc says:

    Amusing how people claim the Tundra profits are all going overseas, which is simply wrong, but especially amusing in contrast with Dodge. Using this erroneous logic — all of Dodge’s profits until a few months ago were going to Germany!

  46. Someone says:

    I think that Toyota’s should not even be apart of the big three. All they are good for is good interior and I would not want to buy a 40,000$ dollar truck that gets sucky fuel milage and is only good for 10,000 pounds. It is also made i Japan

  47. Justin says:


    Um, if you’ve done your research, The Big Three refers to domestic manufacturers (GM, Ford & Chrysler). So Toyota isn’t one. Now if you look at overall vehicle sales, GM & Toyota are flip flopping 1st & 2nd place in this category.

    Also, Toyota isn’t really well known for their interiors. Maybe interior quality but not interior styling. Many manufacturers have better overall styled interiors. Toyota is more well known for their reliablilty, resale value and quality.

    Tundra bad MPG’s, come on it has the 2nd best MPG’s in a 1/2 ton truck. Only the Chevy 5.3L gets better MPG’s, and that is by very little (roughly 1mpg).

    Name a 1/2 ton truck other than the F150 and Tundra that can haul more than 10K lbs?

    Lastly, the Tundra is built soley in the USA. The 5.7L comes from Texas while the 4.7L & 4.0L models are built in Tennesse.

    Please don’t try to compare the Tundra to a 3/4 or 1 ton, as these are totally different classes.

    So it’s nice to have you post to the site, but at least do some research first. Oh, and I’m not a Tundra fan. I own a domestic 1/2 ton that I prefer over the Tundra, but keep up on the competition.

  48. Someone says:

    First of all, when you say for me to tell you to name one 1/2 truck that tows more than toyota except for the F- 150, that is like saying name me one truck that is better built, tougher, and lasts longer except for the ram, silverado, sierra, F-150 -F-450, and dakota. There is no other, except for all of the real trucks. Toyotas cars are made in Japan, which means that part of Toyota is Japan. And motor trend picked the toyota as the truck of the year. Well, lets see, you get a cheap truck that can only tow 10,000 pounds, gets 13/17 on feul milage( my ’02 dodge ram with a hugh cummins under the hood gets better milage despite the fact that it is heavier and bigger). The only reason why it is the truck of the year is because it has a good interior, is quiet on the road ( ha ha, only a sissy would care about that) and the location of the pretty navigation system. It also says that Toyota wants to compete with the big boys (chevy, ford, dodge) so why cant it compete with the 3/4 tons. Oh…. because it would get its but kicked. When Motor Trend picked the truck of the year, they did not pick a truck, they picked a car that gets horrible feul milage, is quite LOL, and has a navigation system so you dont get lost, something else to get broke. And just to give you some research to do, you can get a chevy for or dodge that gets better feul milage than the oversized car.

  49. Someone says:

    First of all, I have already researched and found a truck that can get better feul milage than the Toyota, believe it or not, the Dodge Ram 1500. In the Motor Trend magazine, the toyotas best fuel milage is 13/17. The Dodges is 16/19. Toyota also says that it wants to run with the big boys, so why can’t we compare it with the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks? Toyota is trying to be apart of the big three by showing a 1-ton diesel tundra with a 300hp, 600-lb-ft 8.0L inline six-cylinder diesel from a medium-duty application. The 1/2 ton trucks that can tow more than the toyota are the chevrolet silverado, and the F-150.

  50. journeyman says:

    Hey guys. First..I do pipeline construction from coast to coast…flatlands, rocky mountains etc. I pull a 28′ 5th wheel to live in while I’m on a job. 80% of the driving is off road. I’ve had Z71’s, Ram Hemi’s and Fords, all gas engines with off road pkgs over 30 years. They are all great when they’re new, and to me ‘new’ is under 100k miles. Now it’s nice that some of yu can save 10k on the purchase price but can you ammortise your cost over 300k miles with few or no repairs? I don’t think so. I do with Toyotas and have been doing it for years now. They are simply the most reliable half ton out there and with my new 5.7l tundra there’s not much else out there that can beat the power, handling or reliability inherent in Toyota’s by much of a margin if any and most of you will not even have your truck when it’s got 300k miles on it, the wrecker will have it, and that’s a plain fact.

  51. Justin says:

    Someone: After reviewing, you are correct that the new ’07 Silverado 1500 (6.0L V8) can tow 10.5K, just like the Tundra (5.7L V8), per the Chevy website.

    Now I’d love to see the Motor Trend article where the Ram gets better mpgs than the Tundra. Last review I read from MT comparing all similarly equipped 1/2 ton models (early 2007), the Ram 5.7L HEMI actually had the worst mpg’s of them all in real world testing, with the Silverado having the best and the Tundra coming in 2nd. You’ll notice if you visit http://www.fueleconomy.gov that the 13/17 Tundra was a 5.7L V8 4X4 model, while you’ll see the best any model Ram is 14/20 which is a 3.7L V6 2WD model. Not a good comparison. None at 16/19 and the 5.7L V8 shows a best of 13/18 in 2WD form.

    Now if you want to compare a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 or 1 ton, then why not compare a Civic to an Avalon, or Prius to a Charger. Each category vehicle has specific needs and criteria. 1/2 tons aren’t meant to compare to the larger trucks, they serve a similar purpose but at a smaller scale. Now once Toy releases a HD truck, like the one you’ve described with the 8.0 Hino (seen pictures on the net and I’m not too fond of the truck), then you can compare that truck to the 3/4 & 1 tons. But the current Tundra shouldn’t be made to compare to 3/4 & 1 tons unless you do the same to all trucks, which isn’t the most objective comparison.

    Like I’ve stated, I’m not a Tundra fan, but it has certain things that make it better than the rest. Also the other 1/2 tons have items that make them more worthy than the Tundra. I’m really going to like comparing the ’09 Ram and ’09 F150 being released this year to the Tundra. We know the current Ram is basically a 5-6 year old model (released in ’02) while the F150 is a 3-4 year old model (released in ’03 as a ’04 model). So an updating of these trucks will give us a good idea how all 1/2 tons compare, being each truck will be all new since 2007, with the exception of the Titan.

  52. Justin says:

    Someone: I’m not trying to argue, just trying to put things in perspective.

    When ever did I say the truck had to be better built, tougher and last longer? Just stated which have a tow rating of 10K+ in a 1/2 ton model. Bringing in any model HD truck, no matter make/model, doesn’t count, as they are “not” 1/2 ton trucks. Almost anyone would admit a 3/4 or 1 ton should have a higher tow rating and most likely last longer towing 10K+ lbs since they were designed to haul the heavier loads. It’s about comparing apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

    Toyota is a Japanese company, with most of their cars being produced in Japan, but their trucks are built in America by Americans. What does this have to do with anything though? I don’t get the point you’re trying to make.

    Yes MT did pick the Tundra as ToY, I don’t agree, but don’t agree with a lot of what most magazines say. Sure some parts of the Toyota are cheap, but same goes with the Dodge, Ford, GM and Nissan products. Each make/model has goods/bads.

    Sure the Toyota has a nice interior, but I personally think the Ford has a better overall interior, with the exception of rear leg room. The Toyota may have a quiet ride, but I think the GM models are quieter. It also seems that every 1/2 ton on the market now offers navigation, so why talk bad about the Tundra because it has it, but not the other makes?

    13/17 is an estimate; you could get better or worse. Comparing an

  53. imadetheswitch says:

    To all you hemi owners .Toyota commercials brag up their trucks as being the quickest in the class.So take your hemi powered truck and kick its butt and then sue Toyota for false advertisement
    I have been doing alot of reading about hemi this and hemi that, go prove it under certified conditions then sue them .Its the american way to get rich and toyota has alot of money,they accually operate at a profit.
    I just put the first 102 miles on my new double cab 5.7 Tundra 4wd to work and back a few times on country roads. Not highway miles and put gas in it until it spilled out of the top. It took 5.8 gallons, that is 17.586 mpg
    The country of origin said 100% parts and labor USA. If thats not American made what is?
    Here is another one for you . How many 80s and 90s s10s and rangers are still on the road compared to full sized trucks? around here it is probably 10 to 1 . do you know why? It is because they had to make them better to compete with the small trucks from Nissan and Toyota. Now that Nissan and Toyota have introduced real full sized trucks that absolutly rock the pathetic way the big three have treated us will have to change.

  54. Trenton Durfee says:

    Look the tundra is a great truck. That is coming from a Hemi owner but the new 2009 Dodge Ram is better. More power and 5% better on fule. Look in side and the Dodge it better as well. All that had it still looks better then the Toyota. By the way I still cant get anyone to race. most the Toyota drivers are old guys going to Wal-Greens to pick up their viagra. I have a contractor frind that has got a tundra had it for 4 months and he wont give it a go?

  55. ICUH8N says:

    The Ram is oldest of the full size trucks. The ’09 Ram comes out in a few months and will do much better. To say the Ram’s engines are incapable because their technology just doesn’t compare to Toyotas is down right stupid (sohc and pushrod). For ’09 the HEMI has 380 hp and 404 tq, the 4.7 has 310 hp and 335 tq.

  56. ICUH8N says:

    imadetheswitch, the Tundra is made here in America, but the parts aren’t 100 percent from, that’s wishful thinking. Either way, money still goes over seas and you’re making the Japanese richer. Toyota employs 350k American workers, GM employs almost 2 million. when you watch the news stating GM lost money, laid off more workers, etc… one of the reasons is because of people like you. The japanese rule the electronic market with virtually no compition, if car sales continue with this trend (domestics down, imports up) they’ll rule that market too. Millions will lose their jobs. Believe me its happening. Before anybody starts ranting about quality, just give it up. Toyota has a great rep, that’s it. Doesn’t matter what kind of car you buy today, they’re all good. With todays warranties (i.e. Chryslers lifetime powertrain warranty) Toyota’s quality is not a reason to switch. The Tundra probably has the worst launch of any full size truck ever. look into it, problem after problem. Toyota even has publicly apologized for the Tundras problems. Consumer Reports has even said they haven’t tested any Toyota in years, they just assumed they were great vehicles and alawys recommended them. Not anymore, they don’t recommend the V6 camry or the 5.7 tundra, they say too many problems and no more assuming, they’re going to start testing toyotas again.

  57. Hemi Now says:

    How can you compare a 381 hp motor to a 345 hp motor. Why don’t we compare the 8.0l v8 pickup that has the dodge viper engine in it. Put the tundra up against that. Apples and oranges people it all about choices. The Dodge looks way better,as a matter of fact all the us trucks look better than the tundra.Even the nissian looks better.I agree with the previous writer buy american and more americans work.

  58. Mark Maez says:

    TOYOTA TUNDRA! give me a break this is just another overrated toyota. What happened to you guys at childhood that made you turn to a japanese truck its first year in production. Do you have any idea how much its going to cost to repair the engine& transmission in this abomination of a truck when you tow a 10k lb trailer? Toyotas repair and parts costs are much higher than dodge. Dodge put the HEMI thru a million hour cell test in which they overheated the engine than charged it freezing cold coolant to try and break it in addition to a battery of other tests. So your going to try and convince me that toyota went from the wimpiest truck to the number one truck overnight, this is just a bunch of advertising hype that toyota spends so much money on. good luck finding a american job to pay for your japanese truck.

  59. admin says:

    Mark – You asked what happened to us as children. The answer: We weren’t dropped on our heads.

  60. Ryan says:

    Bob Said in November 26th, 2007 @9:33 pm I just traded my piece of @#$% Dodge in for a Toyota Tundra. Apart from the Cummins that truck was junk. From the word go I had nothing but problems. I finally had it when the transmission went out at 42000 mi. As far as the Tundra I dare you to find a half ton pick up that drives better. Has tons of power, and I would even go as far as to say it actually drives like a 3/4 ton PU.

    That tells anyone who knows ANYTHING about trucks that you know ZERO. The Cummins is by all means the best diesel in ANY truck. You obviously have no knowledge whatsoever of trucks. The cummins gets better mileage than the power stroke and the duramax and has more low end.

    Oh, I sat in a Tundra yesterday, never seen so much plastic in all my life. It was a Limited 4×4 crew cab with the 5.7. The interior feels so pathetically cheap. I haven’t driven one so I can’t comment on that, but the interior feels small and cheap.

    The review says something like 12mpg for the Dodge as an average. The only way I can get that low is pulling 4,000 lbs. I drive anywhere from 75-90mph on the highway and have never averaged less than 15mpg.

  61. Mark says:

    Hey Jason, lets put your tundra up against my Ram and settle this once and for all. The 1320 doesn’t lie

  62. Bucky says:

    I own the ’07 Tundra 4×4 Limited Double Cab w/5.7L. I have had nothing but good things out of my truck so far. I move fairly often and tow around 3000lb and have the bed packed full on my moves. No issues whatsoever. I traded in my ’99 Dodge Quad cab 4×4 and was suprised to see how little power and towing capacity my Dodge really had.

    My brother owns an ’05 Dodge 4×4 Quad with the Hemi. No comparison to my new Yota. I can out tow him, drive further since I get much better mileage, and get there faster since my truck dominates the Dodge in all areas.

    You all are entitled to your own opinions. My opinion based on thorough experience with the Dodges and now a Tundra, hands down the Tundra is the superior vehicle.

  63. Rick says:

    I would love to argue with the toyota lovers, but I need to check to see if my frame rusted. HA HA HA. I wonder who toyota s going to pay off to get out f the rust problem. I don’t think the tail gate will rust, because it most likely fell off.

  64. Rick says:

    Chrysler made the HEMI with push rods so they could use it in nascar. Please do some research.

  65. Mickey says:

    Hey rick and mark how is it your company dodge is owned by what Germans. Now what does that do to your so called american made. When you have to mass produce parts for a truck that breaks down so much so the fools can afford it I guess that’s why the suckers or dodge owners.

  66. Steven Hitchcock says:

    hmm.. racing huh? Well.. I recently traded in my ’06 Tacoma Pre-Runner Access Cab with the 236hp V6… And I’ll tell you that I whooped V6 F-150’s and also beat V8 F-250 duallys’. With the Pre-runner my 0-60 time was just at 7 seconds. I now have an 08 Tundra Doublecab SR5 with the 4.7L V8 with 271hp and I have no issues with this truck. It will tow up to 8100lbs and has a 0-60 time of 7.5 seconds, and thats without using the triptonic shifting. I haven’t raced anyone yet, I just hit 747 miles. But after I get my dual exhaust kit, K&N aircharger, and when the supercharger comes out I’ll be happy to race anyone. On another good note, I recently took a trip down to south east florida towing my boat. Averaging 17mpg doing 75 miles an hour while towing a 2300 pound boat is awesome in my book, and that was 100 miles each way. So props to Toyota for building a good truck, that fits my needs perfectly. I have no problems with Fords,Chevys’, GMs’ or Nissan…I just feel that toyota fits my needs better than the others.

  67. JD says:

    Just FYI for all….I own an ’05 Hemi Ram QC 4×4 and an ’07 Tundra DC 4×4 and believe me we have dragged them many times (Fridays after work). With the Tundra in TC mode and the Ram with OD off, the Tundra usually wins by a couple of car lengths. With the TC off, and in Tow/Hual mode in the Tundra, it wins by about 80-100 ft. I love both trucks and both have served me very well- I just wanted to clear up some of the drag race “what if’s” that I have seen here. Both trucks are extended cab, 4×4, 5.7L V-8’s, with between 60K and 90K miles on them and completely stock….if either one of them were modded- who knows ???

  68. […] Tundra v. Ram — Part I: Mechanicals | tundraheadquarters.com __________________ 2008 Crewmax X-SP pakage . 20″ JTI rims BFG AT KO 285/55/20 Carbon fiber kit Toytec 3″ lift w 1″ rear WeatherTech floor liners […]

  69. john says:

    Enough! I don’t race my truck. I just bought a 26′ travel trailer and have not pulled it yet. I have a 2007 Tundra 5.7 reg cab 4X4. What I can tell you is I get 20mpg cruising at 65 with no trailer. If I run 75-80 I will get 15mpg. I am calculating this by hand which is more accurate than the computer. I am not interested in wasted conversation about other brands of trucks. I feel I made the right purchase for my needs. I do feel that Dodge, Ford and GM build good trucks. I also would like to add I have 15,000 miles on this Tundra with absolutely no problems. I have talked to owners of 5.4 Ford 4X4 and Dodge Hemis and from what I gather the fuel economy seems to be about the same. I say drive what makes you happy.

  70. Mickey says:

    Mark drop the complex. Just because you mass produce a product doesn’t make it good. Ohh by the way I do have an American job and I do own a Tundra. Never once would I have consider a dodge. I see too many vehicles of that logo alongside of the road. You also have the gumption that dodge makes the only first time version of a truck without any problems. If that was so then they wouldn’t have ford, chevy or anyone else. Since that’s not the case you need to wakeup from that nightmare you’re having. When you do smell the B/S you’re shoveling.

  71. Jim says:

    After reading every post on this thread I now realize why so many Dodge truck owners have Harley decals in their back windows. At least Harley is building a better product these days, hopefully the ’09 Ram will be a major improvement as well.

    BTW I own a ’87 Dodge with almost 300K on it that is a great vehicle. It’s a shame Mitsubishi had to build it in Japan for Dodge. (Raider/Montero).

  72. Ingle says:

    isn’t it my money my choice?

  73. Rod says:

    My Dodge truck with a HEMI, flow masters and K and N fuel system will blow any other stock truck off the road, especially Tundras

  74. Justin says:

    Rod: Well I’m not a Tundra fan, nor a Ram fan, but why compare your truck with a few slight mods to a stock truck? Isn’t this putting you at an advantage and not be considered an equal fight? Why not compare your Ram to a Tundra with a CAI and catback system too? Or would that give the Tundra an unfair advantage? Apples to apples my brotha!

  75. Someone says:

    I bet u that um that if a combine um landed on um a toyota or a dodge um then they would um both get crushed um um um um um um does anyone here know how to find google.com?

  76. dodge owner says:

    ok…look at the date of this article….2007….

    now look at the new 2009 dodge ram

    it is a pushrod that can destroy any Double overhead cam

    410FT and almost 400Hp.,……i am shure that with a couple of tweaks you could squeeze way more out of the hemi…..

    kinda like the CHEVY 350……better intake bigger TBI performer cam and oversize pushrods…….you could go from 200HP to about 300 or more…..


  77. Mickey says:

    Govt. money spent on both of your choices and they are still losers.

  78. Justin says:

    Dodge Owner: Why oh why, must everyone think a full-size trucks only aspect is “how big is my motor” or “Look at the hp/lb-ft #’s”. Dude, it’s nice to know, may give some bragging rights, but the real test of a full-size truck, like most vehicles, is it’s all around and total pkg, not just 1 aspect. And the HEMI is a nice motor, but it’s wrapped in Dodge and connected to a problematic transmission. It does sound like Dodge will be releasing a 6spd soon, but will it be as problematic as their previous trannies?
    Glad you support GM/Dodge, cause not many people do these days, and I’m sure most taxpayers would like to be paid back eventually.
    What is the only full-size truck to sell more in sept. 09 than in sept. 08?
    Ram declined in sales roughly 7K units
    Silvy down by roughly 31K units
    Sierra down by 11K units
    Tundra down by 1300 units
    Titan down by about a 1K units
    F-Series up by roughly 1100 units.
    Whats is the only full-size truck to sell more in aug. 09 than aug. 08?
    Ram is down about 7400
    Silvy down about 23K
    Sierra down 8600
    Tundra down 9500 units
    Titan down 4300
    F-Series up 5100 trucks.
    This means over the last 2 months combined:
    Rams down 14K+ units
    Silvy down 44K+ units
    Sierra down 19K+ units
    Tundra down 11K+ units
    Titan down 5K+ units
    F-Series up 6K units
    This small factor shows that while every other full size is declining in sales, Ford is gaining and improving its market share and hold on the full-size truck market. Yeah it still has the tired 4.6L & 5.4L, with the 5.0 (Bobcat), 3.5L/3.7L EB V6, and 6.2L (Boss) to be released soon, but still goes to show people put their money on the best all-around truck, whether its the most/least powerful.
    And please don’t give me the typical “well its cheaper” comment, cause the cost overall is insignificant, especially when you get in the higher trim models. You can’t tell me Ford sells 238,827 more full size trucks than the Tundra simply because of this flawed (cheaper) logic. If that were true, then why does Yota sell more Camry’s than say the Malibu if the Malibu is cheaper? I know the come back already, because the Camry is a better quality/reliable vehicle. But if that were true, and Yota owners feel the Tundra is better built and provides more reliability, then it should out-sell the F-series, correct? Sure the F-Series includes the 3/4 & 1 ton, so say 1/2 that 295K is F-150, then that means the F-150 still sells roughly 90K-95K more 1/2 ton trucks than the Tundra.
    So we can debate this to our wits end, you guys will like who you like, me I’ll like who I like and will simply let the sales # of these trucks do the talking. Cause personally, bottom line, sales are the #1 factor in people detemrining what is the best product on the road.

  79. Justin – I think the sales figures from the F150 are strong right now. NOT because of the higher volumes, but because of the increase in market share. I would guess that Ford has capitalized on consumer’s ill will and/or displeasure with the GM and Chrysler bankruptcies. The Tundra’s figures are down, much like the industry, but their market share is sliding too. I think that’s a problem.
    As for your contention that all trucks are slipping except the Ford because the Ford is best…it’s definitely not that simple. Not that the Ford isn’t a great pickup (it is), but as we’ve discussed before it’s not *just* about the trucks. The Ford is usually less expensive, there are political beliefs that influence truck purchases, Ford has more dealerships now that so many GM stores are going to close, etc. It’s folly to claim higher sales figures are ONLY the result of consumer quality perceptions – there are many factors. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that the Ford isn’t great. I think it’s the equal of the Tundra in most ways, and it might even be better depending on your needs…but stating that “Ford trucks are best because they sell more vehicles” is like saying “George W Bush was the best President of the United States because he had the highest popularity rating in history.” Not to get political, but it’s illogical to assume consumers – en masse – act rationally.

  80. Hemi Power says:

    I have a 2003 Ram 1500 Quad cab w/ Hemi. I got it tested at the Dyno in 2006, and the ratings are 383 horsepower and 404 lb/ft of torque. No modifications, all stock. The truck does 0-60mph between 5.3-5.8 seconds. I have towed a 1000lb trailer with a 6600lb tractor on it on a 678 mile trip, and I averaged 11-13mpg city, and 18-20mpg highway. I fly by Tundras left and right (no load of any kind) and have never had any problems what so ever. The truck has 42,000 miles on it, and the biggest problem I have ever had is a flat tire. Like some people mentioned in previous posts, the Tundra has copied off the Ram for multiple things, and I still cannot compete. The 2009 Ram was redesigned, and now officially beats the Tundra (It already did in my eyes). 390hp and 407lb/ft of torque are incredible. I used to have a 1993 F-150 XLT. 4.9L I6 with 145hp and 163lb/ft of torque. LOL! Ford may have the highest tow and payload ratings now, but that is only because they have better suspension and transmission than the Dodge. If Dodge could improve on these two things, I would be the top truck for sure! In short, Toyota and Nissan suck, Dodge rocks, Ford and GM are Ok, but not quite with the dodge.

  81. Justin says:

    Hemi Power: I am not a Dodge Ram fan, nor a Toyota Tundra fan. But I must call BS on your dyno numbers. Unless the dyno you used is broken, there is no way a “stock” 2003 Ram QCab 5.7L HEMI produces 383hp/404lb-ft. If this is true, please scan a copy of your dyno results, post a pic to someplace like photobucket, and provide all us a url/link to the results. Also, please do the same for your track slip displaying 5.3-5.8 0-60 times on this truck. On second thought, you could actially post these numbers, but we wouldn’t know your truck is “stock” form and these sheets might not display the make/model vehicle tested. But anyways, thanks for the laugh this morning. The only item regarding specs provided I can see as plausable, are your city mpgs (11-13). Not even your highway mpgs (18-20) are realistic, when for 2003, the Ram HEMI has continuously shown to be the worst in fuel mileage compared to other full size trucks.
    So I’m glad your proud of your truck, hey if my truck did what you state in stock form, I’d be proud too. But I must simply laugh and state “no”, “none”, “nada” stock full size truck with a gas motor is putting down those dyno #’s “stock”. Thanks for the good morning humor.

  82. Justin says:

    Just noticed you didn’t clarify the 5.7L HEMI, but just HEMI. After a little research, the only stock Ram that could produce the #’s you provided is the SRT10 V10 QCab, which uses a Viper motor, which that motor is not a HEMI. So if you do have a stock 2003 Ram HEMI, largest being the 5.7L in the Ram, I call BS. If it is the SRT10, I can potentially see those numbers, but again, that motor is not a HEMI. So is it a HEMI or the V10?

  83. Justin – Good call.

  84. Mickey says:

    Hemi besides being bias in your thoughts, by chance you know where your parts are made at? How does it feel like being owned by the govt.? By chance are you sure your truck will be around in 5 years???

  85. Hemi Power says:

    The Ram SRT-10 produces 500hp and 525 lb/ft of torque, not 383hp and 404 lb/ft. My truck has the 5.7L Hemi, and I don’t have a membership to any website like photo bucket, so I can’t post the dyno or track results. Sorry if this doesn’t help at all, and I totally understand if you can’t believe me, but these are the results that I got from the dyno. Maybe it WAS broken like you say. As for the 0-60mph times, I have to admit that my brother used a stop watch and timed me. We did 10 runs on a 1/2 mile of flat,smooth,open road, and each run, the time was between 5.3 and 5.8 seconds. I would not be surprised if that was the reason for the quick run times. I will say that the truck was running on the Shell nitrogen enriched gasoline, so that may have enhanced the trucks preformance. I am sorry, but this is all the help I can be.

  86. Mickey says:

    That’s one of the reasons why I use shell as for my gas. Another is that it keeps it clean in the engine compartment.

  87. Justin says:

    Hemi Power: I know the numbers the SRT-10 & 5.7L Hemi put down, but remember those are flywheel numbers, not the actual numbers put to the ground. There’s a thing called parasitic loss, below is a link for review. So sure my truck puts down 300hp/365lb-ft, but that’s not what truly gets to the wheels.
    And I’ve run Shell, Mobil, Conoco/Phillips 66 and BP 87 octane in my truck, and the best for performance that I’ve found is BP. Well, other than running 100 Octane from the local Sunoco station or the E85 they offer. The E85 does drop the mileage by 2-5mpgs, but you do notice a slight difference/increase in power (seat of the pants).
    Now if you have the 5.7L from an ’03 Ram Qcab, your power numbers at the flywheel from Dodge 345hp/375lb-ft. The new 2009+ Ram produces 390hp/407lb-ft. So personally, if your truck is stock with the 345hp/375lb-ft, I see no way possible that the dyno results showed you produced 383hp/404lb-ft. That would mean from the motor to the wheels you actually gained power by 38hp/29lb-ft, which without modifications, is practically impossible and why I called your original post BS.

  88. Hemi Power says:

    Justin, I understand why you call BS. Believe me, I was shocked too when I saw the rating. I think you are probably right that the dyno was broken. But until I get it tested again (I hope to very soon), I am going to stand by these numbers. Yes I am familiar with the parasitic loss, and that makes me even more skeptical about the results. Just out of curiosity, what kind of truck do you have, and what is the engine?

  89. Justin says:

    Hemi Power: Sure most here can reply for me, but own an ’06 F150 5.4L XLT Screw 3.73LS.
    Now I admit, my truck ain’t the fastest on the roads (not why I purchased it), but tows very well here at 5280ft, rides very nice, carries the family no problem and has been problem free.

  90. Hemi Power says:

    Hey Justin, I figured out why my truck has such great performance. I bought it used in 2005 from my uncle, and he told me not too long ago that he had a factory installed exhaust option. Single in, single out flowmaster super 44 muffler. 4inch by 18inch stainless steel tip. I was told by him when I bought it that it was all stock, but this Thanksgiving, I asked him and he told me otherwise. I feel embarrassed because I should have noticed the exhaust system. No wonder why it put out such high numbers on the dyno and track. Sorry for the confusion… I wish he told me the truth about it, unless he forgot. I doubt it though. BTW, I love your truck. The blacked out lights are awesome. Is it all stock?

  91. Justin says:

    Hemi Power: Not to question your figures or anything, but I still have a hard time believing this truck dynos at 383hp and 404 lb/ft with simply a SI/SO exhaust. A great catback exhaust may give you 20hp and similar lb/ft increases. Your setup is experiencing roughly 38hp and 29lb-ft increase over stock fly wheel ratings. Either more stuff has been done to your truck, the dyno was broken, or you have one hell of a special truck. When you get a chance, post up some pics of your ride for us!
    Thanks for the compliments. It is completely stock with the exception of a Superchips Cortex 1950 tuner/programmer. Have plans for it (don’t we all with our trucks), but not enough money at the current time to invest into it. My list of mods keep growing, but so do the kids expenses, which seem to come before the truck.

  92. Hemi Power says:

    I here you Justin.
    I will try to get a video of it on youtube soon, but it is starting to get pretty cold and even starting to snow here in Michigan, so it will have to wait until later. To give you an idea of what it looks like, it is maroon (burgundy if you prefer) w/silver trim. 8ft bed w/century cap (I hate the cap, but it does protect cargo in the back). With a rolling start to 5mph, I’d estimate it gets to 45mph in around 2 seconds (give or take).

    It is funny because some of the neighbor kids come up to me when I’m about to pull out and say things like, “Floor it!” or,” Do Hemi power!” LOL! Kids sure are funny.
    The only problem with it is because it weighs so much, when I hit a bump, the thing about flies off the road.

    Also, do you have any suggestions for replacement tires for it? I have 17inch wheels w/ goodyear wrangler tires. No complaints except that in the rain, or a dusting of snow, they have horrible traction, and spin easily if I hit the gas too hard. I have been asking around, and other who have the same brand of tire (different trucks) have had the same problem. They either recommend a tire with larger tread, or the same brand. The larger tread makes more road noise and wears down faster, but I don’t want the same problems I have now. Any suggestions? Thanks.

  93. Hemi Power says:

    About the Fiat/Chrysler partnership: the new Ram Trucks brand is a horrible idea IMO. So now Chrysler LLC has Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge, and Ram? It just doesn’t fit. Also, every other brand has a name the flows, if you know what I mean. Ford F-150, GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Silverado, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, etc… Ram? It just doesn’t fit for every other truck to have a different brand name than the truck name, and then Ram… Some people may disagree and say that it is Ram 1500, but the tundra, titan, silverado, and sierra don’t include 1500 (anymore). For as long as I live, I will still call it the Dodge Ram, or better yet, Dodge Ram 1500.

    I look forward to the new 6.4L Hemi expected in 2012. I hope it will also be available for the 1500 version of the Dodge Ram. I have seen some websites the say it will put out 450+hp, but others claim 535hp and 550lb/ft of torque. Personally, I think that the ratings will be closer to 450 for both hp and torque, but maybe dodge will surprise us and throw in a turbo or a supercharger.

    I hope that the Ram will soon come with the option of a 6.5ft bed on CCab, and an 8ft bed (around 8ft) on the QCab. That would make it a lot easier to haul things, but keep the convenience of the larger cabs.

  94. Hemi Power – I agree with you on the “Ram Ram” naming idea. It’s going to be interesting. I think the biggest problem with the new name is that it will remind consumers that Dodge filed bankruptcy, and that it’s owned by Fiat. It’s hard to imagine the die-hard “Buy American” crowd getting excited about a Ram Ram from Fiat. NOTE: To be clear, I’m not saying that the whole “don’t buy from Italy” is smart argument, just pointing out an unintended consequence of the new name. I too will refer to the Ram Ram as a “Dodge Ram 1500.”

  95. Hemi Power says:

    I just was looking around at truck mods, and I stumbled upon a site that said the 2012 Nissan Titan was going to get the 5.7l hemi. This suprised me and I read on and found that they are going to replace the 5.6l endurance V8 with the 390hp Hemi because of some partnership w/ Chrysler LLC. For those who still question the power and reliability of the Hemi, ask yourself if Nissan would really use the Hemi and get rid of the endurance V8 if it was not a good engine. I think not. They are using it because it is a strong, fast and reliable engine. I still am not a Nissan Titan fan, but I will give it more respect now it has a better engine. What are your thoughts on this whole thing?

  96. Hemi Power – That news is expired. That was the plan prior to Chrysler’s BK, but now that they’re owned by Fiat, they won’t be partnering with Nissan. The next-gen Titan has a very, very cloudy future (if it has a future at all). http://usnews.rankingsandrevie.....o-With-It/

  97. Justin says:

    HemiPower: Admin (Jason) is correct, that news is quite old. There were talks between Nissan/Renault and Chrysler for a joint venture on the next Titan. The exterior and interior designs were to be done exclusively by Nissan, while the underpinnings would be built on a Ram chassis. Last I had heard, Nissan was still trying to determine if they wanted to continue with the 5.6L Endurance or to swap to the 5.7L HEMI. Of course they never finalized their decision, as talks broke down and any agreement was cancelled once Chrysler declared BK. Nissans part of the deal was they were going to build a small or mid-size vehicle to share with Chrysler. This is such old news, I’m just trying to remember the bits and pieces from the top of my head.

  98. Hemi Power says:

    OK. I had not heard about that news until recently and was quite surprised. BTW, I just bought a new 2010 Dodge Grand Caravan SE w/ the customer preferred package. 3.3L V6 w/ 175hp is quiet but responsive, and so far, I am very pleased with it. I love the stow n go, and the 3 zone climate control will be excellent for keeping the family happy on long trips. Also Justin, do you have any suggestions about new tires? I will probably just stick with the same brand unless you know of a better brand. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

  99. Hemi Power – Cool man – vans are one thing that Chrysler does as well as or better than everyone else. I keep teasing the wife about buying a van…she wants kids, so I’m trying to have fun with it while I can.

  100. Hemi Power says:

    Has anyone else heard about how Toyota’s president is under suicide watch? I heard it on the news, and many people seem to think the huge recalls are the end for Toyota. Also Justin, do you have any suggestions on new tires? Thanks.

  101. Justin says:

    I have yet to hear the suicide watch deal, but know how those Japanese believe in work and honor, it wouldn’t surprise me.
    Tires, I’ve always had good luck with BFG All-Terrain T/A KO’s. They are the typical aftermarket tires I install on all my trucks, but can get pricey. I know many that use other tires and rave about them, but I have no personal experience. The tires on my 150 currently (stock BFG Rugged Trail) are decent all season tires, but don’t have as good of bite in the mudd or snow as the othe BFG’s.

  102. Mickey says:

    Hemi how does it feel to be under Italian rule? You definitely can’t talk being bailed and then sold to the lowest bidder ot only bidder.

  103. Anonymous says:

    Feels pretty good, they are changing around something but selling vehicles. Oh I’m sorry, I forgot. So how many can Toyota sell? Once again my apologies. How’s those recalls? Sucks doesn’t it? So I see acouple editors ranked the Ram and Tundra as a tie and some say the Ram is better. I think its better, at least you can buy and drive!

  104. Mickey says:

    Couldn’t find the definition to your word “acouple” ANONYMOUS. I can criticize someone’s spelling also. I hate to burst your buble there but her you go.

  105. Hemi Power says:

    Thank you Justin. I will take your suggestions for tires into consideration.

  106. Matt D says:

    Can the Tundra’s transmission handle a 24 foot trailer with say 7000 pnds of cargo on an everyday basis.

  107. Jason says:

    Matt D – I think so, but I need more info. The weight of the trailer and the engine size are the critical factors.

  108. Matt D says:

    the trailers i’ve been looking at are around 3200 to 3900 pnds and the cargo i would haul would be about 4000 pnds. I’v e been looking at the 5.7 tundra but have been told that the engine and the transmission are not gonna last

  109. Justin says:

    Matt D: The Tundra with a 5.7L, 6spd and tow pkg, should be more than capable to handle the load you speak of. My only concern, and this is with any 1/2 ton, is the longevity of the truck towing that weight on a daily basis. If it was a weekend warrior or once in a while tow, I’d see no problem with such a load. But to put a 1/2 ton through that work on a daily basis will simply shorten its lifespan. I’m speaking more to cutting a 300K mile vehicle doen to say 100K-150K miles. Now I’ve seen people do it, but then complain when the truck doesn’t last as long as expected. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I’d opt for a 3/4 ton. I tow a 6K-7K load about 7-8 times a year, and my F150 does fine, even here at altitude (5280ft +). But over the long haul, if I had to carry such weight even once a week, I think for longevity and durability sake, I’d opt for a 3/4 ton. Again, just my opinion.

  110. Hemi Power says:

    Here in Michigan, we got about 8 inches of snow today, and a bus came down my street and got stuck! I went down with a shovel to try to help it out, but the driver would just hit the gas, instead of rock it. Eventually, I had to get my truck and bring it down there with tow straps. Before I hooked it up, the driver floored it and left quite a bit of rubber on the ground. That was probably the first time I have ever seen a bus do a burnout. I bet the kids loved that. I hooked up my truck, threw it into four wheel drive, and slowly, was able to help get the bus unstuck. Hemi Power! The driver then asked me if I could follow her to make sure she didn’t get stuck again. I love snow, and I hope we get more here.

  111. Justin says:

    Hemi: Of course living in CO, I love driving in the snow as well. Just have to watch out for them crazy and bad drivers. This morning I saw a dark green 4Runner (not the current Gen, but the prior Gen) pull out of a subdivision, clipped the passenger rear end of a black Ram QC (02-08 model), which made the Ram clip the two drivers side doors of a gold/biege Pilot. When the Ram hit the Pilot, the driver of the Ram over-corrected to the left and rolled the Ram into a ditch. The Ram had no wheels, front bumper, grille, all windows blown out and the roof caved in when all was said and done. Basically the truck was scrap metal. The 4Runner and Pilot had damage, but nothing that looked too costly.

  112. Jason says:

    Matt – I’m sure the Tundra would do well with that load on a regular basis (especially at low altitude), but Justin makes a great point. A 3/4 or 1 ton truck is just better for towing, and if you’re going to be doing a whole lot of towing, you might consider it. Check out these video’s too:


  113. Hemi Ram says:

    I own a 2010 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi Sport 4×4 Rcab. Haven’t gotten to try a top speed run yet, but got 0-60 times between 5.8-6.2 seconds every time. 390hp is powerful, and fun. Walked a Titan yesterday, and haven’t lost to a Tundra. I know the Tundra is built in the US, but as toyota is a foreign company, and most of the profits go overseas, I cannot support or like the Tundra, or any other foreign car. I know this sounds biased, and I know that some people on this site will hate me for it, but the US makes good products too. Ram= more powerful and faster than Tundra+ better mpg and almost equal towing and payload; F-150= higher towing and payload than Tundra+ better mpg; Silverado= more powerful, equal towing and payload, and better mpg. I say, if you want a truck, buy domestic, because it is usually just as good if not better than foreign. I know some people like Mickey will probably disagree and give reasons to counter what I have said, but it is just my opinion.

  114. Hemi Power says:

    I recently took my new Grand Caravan on a church retreat. It is about a 3-4 hour drive if you take the freeway. With 7 people (including myself), and around 300lbs of luggage, the van was quite packed. Like previously stated, it is a 2010 Grand Caravan SE 3.3L V6. It is EPA estimated at 17/24 mpg. When we got there, the average mpg said we were getting around 24.3mpg. Not bad. After we made the return 3-4 hour journey, the mpg was at 26.7! Incredible! With 7 passengers and 300+lbs of luggage, and 26+hwy mpg, I am very pleased. My 2003 Hemi Ram would have done about half as well (in the category of mpg’s).

  115. Hemi Power says:

    Hey Justin,
    I just got my Ram tested again (using a different dyno), and these are the results. 293hp @5380rpm and 319lb/ft @4350rpm. This is with a new K&N cold air intake and flowmaster super 44 exhaust. See if this is more what you would expect.

  116. Justin says:

    Hemi: Yup, those look a lot more in line with your typical drivetrain loss. Still some good figures getting to the wheels though. Congrats!

  117. Hemi Power says:

    Thanks for the complement! Like I said, this is with the flowmaster exhaust I mentioned earlier, and a newly added cold air intake. My cousin got his 2004 ram hemi (stock) tested with me, and it put out 272hp and 291lb/ft, so the mods gave me and estimated gain of 21hp and 28lb/ft. Not bad if I may say so myself.

  118. ross smith says:

    All you toyota lovers should sit down and watch pearl harbor while your out of work and wrap or necks with sheetmetal to keep from cutting your own throats

    • Jason says:

      Ross – The irony of your comment is that you left it on a review of a Dodge Ram, which was originally designed when Chrysler was owned by Daimler (German company) and is currently owned by Fiat (Italian company). In all the history books I read, we were at war with both of those countries at the same time we were at war with Japan.

      More to the point, you’re living in the past. If you’re making your purchase decisions based on a broad generalization from an event that occurred 60 years ago, I pity you.

  119. Hemi Power says:

    Jason, I may not agree with you on some things, but that is true. To make a decision about buying a car based on if the country bombed us or not… very low of you ross…

    • Jason says:

      Hemi Power – Thanks man. I think that type of comment has no place in our modern world, especially considering the fact that so many of us come from so many different places.

  120. Hemi Power says:

    This is off the topic of trucks, but i’m trying to figure out how motor trend dyno tested a 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 (which is factory rated at 412hp and 390lb/ft) at 435hp and 405lb/ft. As pointed out by several people on this site, this shouldn’t be possible without modifications, but this mustang has none. I have a few theories, but i would like to hear from others first.


    Let me know what you think.

  121. Jason (Admin) says:

    Hemi Power – I think they’re applying some sort of rear-wheel correction factor to arrive at a number that’s comparable to the factory rating (which is measured at the flywheel rather than the rear wheel).

    If the correction factor is off a little, the calculated flywheel rating from MotorTrend would be off as well.

    Was that your theory as well?

  122. Hemi Power says:

    That was one of my theories. Another is that the Mustang’s factory rated 412hp 390lb/ft is rwhp, not flywheel. Just sounded a strange to me.

  123. Jason (Admin) says:

    Hemi Power – Agreed. When you left the link, I double-checked the video and the specs myself! 🙂

  124. Hemi Power says:

    just checked the ram website. on the 2500 and 3500, it says they come standard with a 6.7L Hemi. lol, typo!

  125. drillbit90 says:

    Obviously these guys are half retarded the comment that 90%I of the braking is on the front brakes is true …. for passenger cars .. if you don’t know what your talking about keep your mouth shut

  126. sirramrod says:

    I’m more on engineering side and I purchased an 06 ram with the mds. For the curiosity reason but mostly because it has 4 bold mains that have 2 horizontal and to vertical = indestructible. The only thing I do not agree with on the ram is the piston design its more like NASCAR scecs than someone who would like to SC the motor but that’s an easy fix and the 545rfe trans in the truck is more than durable its the same as the one put behind the Cummings with a few different internals and has been rated to handle 500 pound feet of tq. Its a great drive train well developed

  127. sirramrod says:

    The tundras frame would be the only reason why wouldn’t buy one I’ve seen bids of bed bounce and the dang bed hits the cab.

  128. Jason (Admin) says:

    drillbit90 – I think that a truck pulling a trailer distributes the brake load better than 90-10, but a truck without a trailer (or that isn’t hauling a load) absolutely puts 90% up front and 10% in back (or so).

    As for the distribution of brake force while loaded, it’s 60 front 40 rear.

    Of course, these are general numbers. They’re good for conversation, but not exact.

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