Toyota Tundra is More American Than Dodge Ram

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Recently released a study that announced the Top 10 American-Made Cars, and much to our surprise the Dodge Ram was not on the list!

Here are the results from the study:

  1. Ford F150
  2. Toyota Camry
  3. Chevy Silverado 1500
  4. Chevy Cobalt
  5. Ford Focus
  6. Toyota Sienna
  7. Chevy Malibu
  8. Pontiac G6
  9. Ford Escape

See what’s NOT on the list? No Dodges. None.


We had to see this for ourselves, so we went and took some photos this weekend at a couple of local Denver dealerships.

The Dodge is 72% domestic parts, with the transmission coming from Germany:

2007 Dodge Ram parts content label

The Tundra has 75% domestic parts, with the most expensive components (engine and transmission) being made in the U.S.

Toyota Tundra parts content label

It’s pretty clear to us that driving a Tundra helps the U.S. economy more than driving a Dodge Ram…not to mention it’s more “American”.

In your face Dodge owners! (just kidding)

Filed Under: Toyota Tundra Reviews and ComparisonsTundra

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  1. Anonymous says:

    Oh man that was funny 🙂

    Corporate wise, the money goes back to Japan.

    Nice to see that there is already 3500 dollars kickback from the factory then another 6000 from the dealership.

  2. […] Tundra was 10th. The Ram was….not on the list! I had to go take some pics to prove it myself…check out this post and see pics of the vehicle content labels. It’s crazy — tell every Dodge owner you know. We’ve […]

  3. George Bishopric says:

    The economic impact of a car is far more than where each individual part is sourced, or even assembled.
    The Toyota may have about the same “domestic parts” but what company makes the parts? A US company, or a Japanese subsidiary?
    Where was the vehicle designed? Where do the profits go?
    Although Chrysler is a weird case, I would bet that more dollars go back to the US economy than from any Toyota.

  4. beistro says:

    In the end it only matters that the US is getting business.. where the profit goes makes no difference. YOu know where the profit goes when it goes back to japan? Right back to the US! With all the expansions in the US by Toyota, me thinks they are the ones investing while ford, dodge and chevrolet are cutting jobs. In the end, who makes the US’ economy better? You tell me!

  5. dodgeman says:

    Hey there anonymous, you stupid fool, I just want to let you in on a little secret, Toyota in a whole employs around 7,000 people in the USA, Dodge employs 100’s of thousands, and majority of the profits goes to the American economy, majority of Toyotas goes to Japan, don’t spill your lies where everyone can read them and believe them, get the facts right before opening your big mouth clown, Dodge is far better for our economy than any foriegn company ever will be fool. And for you biestro Detroit is cutting jobs because ignorant people like yourself and anonymous are buying Toyotas instead of really helping our economy and buying AMERICAN, you and anonymous should do a little research before opening your pieholes I am not kidding and am very serious about this people like you are going to put American companies (the heritage of our country)out of business ponder on that one for a while traders

  6. toyotaman says:

    try to be an Amerincan’s car owner, but hell no its nerver last. 2years on the Dodge Ram 1500 and it die, but i got 1996 toyota 4runner with 294910miles on its and still run like the RAM. sorry to say that i became a Toyotaman not an Americancarownerman…….

  7. dodgeman says:

    Comment to Toyotaman, Well lets see my dad has a 1991 D-150, 250,000+ miles,(original engine and trans) never been touched, also a 1992 Ford Escort w/ more than 225,000 miles, replaced timing belt once, and a 2000 D-1500 w/ just over 100,000 could not run better, My bro has a 2003 Ram Hemi, first year for Hemi no bugs, 60,000 miles never a problem, I have a 1993 Dakota 172,000+ miles doesn’t use a drop of oil, I also have a 2006 Ram Hemi, and a 1989 ford mustang 5.0 123,000 miles and I drive it like a racecar runs like a top, Boy them American cars are unreliable, seem pretty reliable to me, more than I can say for either of my moms Tundras, 2001- trans has been rebuilt, ball joints, and brake problems, 2007 Gee I hope them cams don’t let go, You can preach your Jap crap is more reliabe all you want my friend, but my family and I know the truth

  8. admin says:

    I like this comment from Dodgeman the best :

    “people like you are going to put American companies (the heritage of our country)out of business ponder on that one for a while traders”

    Notice the word “traders”. Guessing he probably meant “traitors”.

    Dodgeman please stop giving our American education system (another heritage of our country) a bad name and learn to spell.

    Or at least spell-check.

  9. Rob says:

    Hey dodgeman, I just bought my first 2007 Tundra last week (July 13, 2007). Previously I owned a Toyota Tacoma (1995), RAV4 (2004), but UAW-built garbage isn’t something I’ll consider anytime soon. My Tacoma ran for 9 years FLAWLESSLY before I sold it for my RAV4…now it’s time to reward Toyota by getting one of their full sized trucks.

    The only complaint I have so far is you really need a sonar package because the visibility in the front is very limited.

    Competition is good though-the consumer always wins, but I could car less about supporting legacy companies if their products aren’t that good to begin with.

    IF Toyota screws up, I can always fall back to European-made vehicles, unless the “big three” ever manage to get rid of the parasite known as the UAW. Only then will I take “the big three” seriously.

    American Engineering is fine-Tesla Motors is proof of that, but Tesla Motors is not handicapped by the UAW (U Ain’t Workin’).

  10. dodgeman says:

    ADMIN, is that all you could come up with smart guy

  11. admin says:

    That’s all I got.

  12. trdman says:

    I guest everyone in this country are clueless, the banks, car magazines, insurance company’s and everyone else that has ever bought a Toyota! I’m not agains the BIG 3, I prefered the Tundra after I test drive!!! It’s all about preference…. I’m sure that Dodge, Chevy and Ford have a lot to offer to truck lover’s out there…..

  13. Johnny Ruff-Stuff says:

    Toyota & Nissan trucks feel like they don’t have power steering. Dodge, Ford, and Chevrolet trucks turn effortlessly. My stupid Nissan steering wheel is always fighting me, pulling in the opposite direction of my turn. Why do these Japanese companies always design steering to feel like my 1986 Hyundai? This’ll be the last import I ever buy. And that garbage about American cars being of lower quality? That’s the biggest excuse I’ve ever heard to make it acceptable to send money to Japan. I’ll put any GMC or Ford up against the Nissans and Toys of the world. Toyotas are toys and Nissans are cups of soup.

  14. Joe Donovan says:

    Toyota is just as American as Chrysler, because its profits are invested in the United States. Toyota has a finance arm in each region in which it operates, and income from each region goes to that region’s financial branch (i.e. Toyota Financial USA). Also, Toyota pays taxes in the United States, which obviously benefits the country. Moreover, Toyota keeps growing within the US market, thus employing more people each year. Lastly, Toyota sources many of its components from American suppliers. I have a friend who works for a company that supplies the cloth material used in the seats that go in their cars.
    This “buy American” talk no longer works and even the Big 3 has realized people no longer buy that marketing talk.
    I am a Dodge owner and have had many mechanical problems with my Ram. My next truck will be either the Tundra or the Silverado.

  15. HPTX says:

    well maybe its a good thing that some Dodges aren’t “All American”. It seems to me that all the Dodge’s assembled in th U.S. are the ones everybody has problems w/ and loves to bash. I have owned two Rams(’00,’03) both assembled in Saltillo, Mex. my friend owns another Mexican Ram(’98) all of which see heavy off-road use and the only problems we have had is running out of trails to ‘wheel on. While others made in U.S. give the rest of brand a bad name.My company also has one Dodge van(’00-198,768 miles) that have out lived three Chevrolet Express vans. American economy aside I work hard for the my money and I choose to purchase the best that is available. I have loved Toyota since I was a kid; but, I am a Ram man. My next truck might be a Toyota but I will never sell my Dodge’s. I love them both i love all good trucks!!-no blue oval or bowtie for me

  16. ToyotaMan says:

    Wow yall are stupid, yea toyota’s profit goes back to japan but, toyota employs over 30,000 people in the united states, soo what if its an american heritage to have chevy and ford , who gives a shit without the japanese innovations we wouldnt have most of the technology we have today, grow the hell up you fight like two year olds, Toyota is as much an american heritage as dodge chrysler, chevy or ford, yall dont know what the hell ur tlaking about..

  17. Marc says:

    I have no problem with Dodge or any of the Big-3 going out of business. Amazing how people forget the 1970s and 1980s when the Detroit companies forced defect-ridden, poor quality, and unsafe vehicles on us. Why should we reward this behavior?

    Even today Dodge especially lags behind the Japanese companies in ethics and environmental practices. Just compare their corporate web sites for evidence.

  18. YouDontGetIt says:

    You foriegn car (truck) idiots just don’t get it.
    Toyota puts money into the economy by adding more facilities to build more cars so that fools like you who believe they care will buy them. Hence possibly closing U.S. Auto makers, anyone remember when televisions, vcr’s, hell electronics in general were made here? Not any more right, what happened to those displaced workers? I know, I know you don’t care because you can get a dvd player for 20 dollars right? Well if the good paying jobs were still here you might have one and be able to pay the higher price to have it built here, which would create more high paying jobs etc.

    Remember when we were the richest country in the world? I can see that is changing. But thats ok you go around with your nonsensical ideas and when that overpaid (Ass Busting) UAW worker loses his job and cant buy your products or services lets see if that will open your eyes.

    How many of the NON UAW workers went on strike sometimes for a year at a time, etting 50 dollars a week in pay, so that quality, safety and monetary gains could be made for even the non union american worker. Preach your shit all you want, but when your working for 6 dollars an hour to put gas in your TOY you might think about some of the things I have said.
    I understand that some of you have been soured by the cars of old, but that is changing rapidly.

  19. admin says:

    YouDontGetIt – I understand your perspective, and I think there’s absolutely some validity in considering the long-term impact of some of our purchase decisions. I think sometimes we as a nation should evaluate the value of buying a cheap good made outside the U.S. when a slightly more expensive good inside the U.S. would do just as well.

    However, when we’re talking about manufacturing a modern automobile, your argument doesn’t hold water. ALL automakers source parts from outside the U.S., and it’s been happening for more than 20 years now. Buying a Toyota is no different than buying a Dodge – they both use many of the same suppliers and they have about the same percentage of parts made in the U.S.

    In fact, the Toyota has more U.S. parts than the Dodge.

    Finally, keep in mind Dodge was a German company up until a few months ago.

    Thanks for posting.

  20. YouDontGetIt says:

    I understand how one could be disillusioned by the sticker on the window. The “Domestic” parts may be made here, but are they made by American companies, or Asian subsideraries. And once again if they are using the same suppliers, then how can one product be superior to the other.

    On the Dodge subject I totally agree and so do many of my fellow workers. It was a takeover #1 and then when drained the resources from Chrysler, they dumped them. Not thrilled with their quality either.

    Anyway I tend to get a little overzealous with this subject. But I see people bash the supposed “lazy” UAW workers at the age of 50 that have carpel tunnel syndrome, bad knees, hips and other parts of their body from repetitive stress disorders, it really pushes my buttons.

    More people need to understand that it may not effect them now, but it surely will some day.

  21. admin says:

    YouDontGetIt – The relationship between the UAW and the Big Three is an excellent example of mutual suicide…

    The UAW, accustomed to increasing salaries and benefits, came to expect more money during every contract negotiation. The writing was on the wall for quite a while, yet it was only recently the UAW acknowledged their members might have to share in the sacrifice in order to return the big three to profitability.

    Conversely, the executives at the big 3 acted greedily for decades. Rather than take some bad medicine and fight the union leadership for more reasonable labor contracts (like they should have back in the 80’s and 90’s), the execs simply caved. That kept the stock price up, and that kept the executives pockets full.

    The road to the big three’s collapse (and Toyota’s ascension) was paved with ignorance and greed.

    Stuck in the mix are a bunch of American autoworkers, who really didn’t have the opportunity to right the ship (even if they knew it was sinking). No one here should be blaming the autoworker – they did what anyone of us would have done in the same situation. I blame the execs and the union leaders equally.

    It’s a real shame – hopefully someone will learn from what’s happened.

  22. YouDontGetIt says:

    I agree with some of your statements.
    The collapse of the big 3 definately had to do with greed, Corporate greed. The “bean counters” at least at Ford, saw the high profits from their pickups and sport utility vehicles and chose to ignore the lower profit small vehicles. They spent all their time and money in the F-150 truck because it was their bread and butter.
    They also spent money investing in non core businesses especially on Nassers watch, and when the company lost a boatload of money and he was ousted, they gave him 23 million in retirement and severance pay. Hmmm would ANY non-executive get rewarded for losing money?

    The UAW at Fords has cooperated with Ford more in the past 10 years, then they have in their entire history. Workers arent greedy and expecting anything that they haven’t earned. We negotiated a contract that included 3 and 4 percent raises, and even though we had a contract did not exercise those raises in an effort to HELP the company. Only to have it thrown up in our face when another executive gets an absurd signing bonus or pay raise. I know what your thinking “I didnt hear that on the news” but it is the absolute truth. One hint, dont believe everything you hear on the news.

    The problem is, Toyota has no Legacy costs. They have no American retiree’s, no pension plan, and import half of their auto’s. If you want to level the playing field you have to compare apples to apples. And revise the trade rules.

    Americans suffered to get the standard of living that people enjoy. They forget that alot of the work rules and benefits they have, were set in place to avoid a unionization of the company that they work for.
    I once received a bonus for voting down the Union. I voted yes, but it still passed. They tried to scare us by telling us if the Union was voted in, tey would have to close the doors. Let me tell you that I have worked in both Union and Non Union companies, the work ethics between the two were pretty close but you are treated more like a human being at the Union companies.

    I almost got a job with Toyota when I thought I might be losing my job. Guess what? Their pay wasn’t much lower than what I am making now, and they were in a southern state which we all know usually have lower costs of living. And have you read the numerous stories about how some of the US Toyota plants want to unionize? Why? Because Toyota doesn’t care about them. From the stories that I have read, when there is a serious injury, they kind of ignore them and push them to the side.

    I am not saying that other companies dont make good vehicles. I am however saying that if you want to keep the standard of living that America is used to, you may want to change your view on buying foreign products.

  23. Fatboy says:

    Wow, Finally someone with “Common Sense”! I agreed completely with YouDontGetIt! It amazes me on how some consumers fall for the advertizing “Goo Roo’s” at Toyota. I just walked the car lot this morning at a local Dealership, that sells both Chevrolets and Toyotas, and according to the stickers on the windows, Chevrolet leads Hands down to Toyota as far as what is manufacuted here in America. The Toyota Highlander and the Rav both are 100% MADE IN JAPAN. Even the Chevy’s that are made in Canada and Mexico at least have some parts made here. And the jobs Toyota brings to American, which totals LESS then 24,000 According to their own Corperate web site, would not even fill 1 NBA Stadium.
    And to those that want to feel they are helping the economy by buying Toyotas, for every 1 job they bring here, the big 3 Loose 4, so it really hurts more then Helps.
    Oh, and the quality thing, My last 3 Chevrolet Trucks had over 300,000 miles, with no issues, when they were replaced and that was due to we had them for 6 years and that was when my company replaces 300,000 or 6 years, in my case it just worked out that way.

  24. Fatboy says:

    This came off this very own web page. Where does it say Toyota is from and what is the name of the President? I guess this should show what is more American?
    I quote:
    “Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe said on Sunday the Japanese automaker will launch a diesel-powered Tundra pickup truck and Sequoia”

  25. Martin says:

    This is an unbelivably stupid discussion. For people to think that by driving a toyota around is to be more American then a owner of a Dodge Ram.

    When you buy a big 3 Car or truck you are directly injecting your hard earned money back into the econamy that you live and work in. Some of that money will go into schools, crime prevention, roads, bridges, defense, health care, social security, etc. This is not true in the purchace of a imported vechial.

    A group called the level feild institude was formed to accually find out how and where the money goes from the purchace of cars and truck.

    They came up with the JPC rating. Jobs per Car rating.

    The dodge Ram scored a 83%, The Toyota Tundra (The most american of any toyota scored a 34%

    The break down.
    Yes the Toyota has 75% parts content from the US and the Dodge has only 73% However Chrysler emploies 77000 workers directly for the build of the dodge ram. The Tundra only 34%. And further the jobs that the ram creates indirectly in the states is 20.8% verses the tundras 8%. Chrysler also has 10 plants that have direct ties to the building of the dodge ram, Toyota only has 3.

    With Toyota also winning the most recall awards and having problems with there 5.7L engine. Hopfully you people will start to realize the damage you have done to our economy. Everytime I see anyting on TV about Japan its always booming and developing new tech. To bad the same cant be said for our country. Read those sites and do some open minded research.

  26. admin says:

    Martin – It seems so simple to me. 75% of the truck is made in the U.S. That’s more than the Ram. What am I missing? You can argue that certain plants are owned by foreigners, but where does it stop? Chrysler was a foreign company up until a few months ago…this argument is outdated. The world we live in is far too interconnected to make distinctions about what’s “more american.” The point behind this article is to show that the “buy American” chorus is usually wrong.

  27. dodgeman says:

    admin, are you really that blind and diluted that you cant see the truth in martins bit, you people are ruining the economy and by the time you people with your blinders on realize it, it will be far to late. “ignorance is bliss” come on open your eyes,

  28. admin says:

    dodgeman – You want to blame me and other Toyota enthusiasts for ruining the U.S. economy, but what you really mean to say is that because we’re not buying Dodge products, we’re guilty of ruining an “American” company. Of course, that flies in the face of fact. Dodge, like most American car companies, has only itself to blame for the current situation. They made an inferior product for a long time, and they took advantage of loyal consumers in the process. Take a look at Consumer Reports magazines over the past 20 years, and you’ll see what ruined Dodge. It wasn’t us that was building them. Today, I honestly believe that Dodge quality is similar to Toyota quality. The typical American consumer, however, does not agree. That’s not my fault – not Toyota’s fault either.

  29. Andrew says:

    ADMIN, As you state, look at Consumers Report. I did and it said they would not recommend the New Tundra, becouse it had too many issue tom recommend. And yes, we do balme people that buy Imports and keep trying to justify their purchase, in “Old” Thinking. The Big 3 did make mistakes, but you cannot say they are building the same thing as they did in the 1970 or 1980’s.
    Toyota intentionaly delayed debuting the Tundra until AFTER GM, in order the be the sole Truck that was changed from the past year. If they brought out their Truck in the same time slot as GM, they most likely would not bne 200? Truck of the Year.
    And there is no denying the impact of purchasing products thjat come from a Foriegn Country. Just Lokk at our Economy! It Sucks! The Honda Goldwing was so proudly made here in America, well that will end at the end of this year. BACK TO JAPAN it goes. Can you garantee Toyota will not or could not do the very same thing when our Economy continues to head downwards?
    I am not a Dodge guy, but I most certainly would put a Dodge in my garage, before I would even consider a TuRD!

  30. Andrew says:

    OK, my spelling comes from books printed in Japan, what can I say?

  31. Andrew – I hate to sound like George Bush, but I don’t think our economy is that bad. I certainly don’t think international trade is to blame for our problems either, but I think we have to agree to disagree. That’s not really what this site is about. As far as Consumer Reports, the Tundra isn’t recommended. Of course, neither is the Dodge. What’s your point? As I said, quality is about the same. Truck buyers have long memories. Buying a piece of junk in 1985 caused some people to swear off domestics forever. No matter how you cut it, that’s not Toyota’s fault.

  32. Andrew says:

    If Goerge Bush did not think our economy was bad, then why the rebate check? Oh, by the way did you know we are getting that money from China?
    My point is simple, BUY AMERICAN! This topic was what is more American, Dodge or Toyota, and I believe the chart from Martin shows that very clear. Dodge!
    As I said, I am not a Dodge guy, but they at least put more money back into our economy than Toyota. If you want to continue trying to convince yourself that this is changing,look at what Honda did recently. They are moving ALL the Motorcycle manufaturing back to Japan. What makes you think this will not or could not happen with Toyota? They already have less American parts and Employ less American Workers the Any other the Big 3.Our Dollar is already weaker then it was 1 years ago, soon we will not be the “Super Power” we thought we were, but China, or India. Who can say they build them up, We did by buying products made there. Who do we blame? Ourselves. Poeple who said they swore off Domestics, they are missing out on some Awesome products lately from the Big 3. Ford, GM and Chrysler’s Quality is way up from the past, and I have never regreted owning any of mine. Even a 1985 Ford Mustang.

  33. Andrew – I don’t understand this logic. People are supposed to “buy American” even though Toyota has built new plants in the U.S. while the domestics close plants, Toyota has increased U.S. production every year while the domestics drop production, Toyota hires new workers while the domestics try to figure out how to buy out workers. If you argument is that the “domestics are better for the U.S. economy,” I’d like to see you explain that to the 19,000 workers that opted to take a buyout from GM (as announced earlier today). I’m not sure they would agree.

  34. Andrew says:

    What don’t you understand?Did you even look at the web site Martin was refering too? I have walked the lots and looked at the stickers on the windows, on the domestic and the imports and according to their own stickers on the windows, state where they are made and what parts content it is from. For example, the Toyota Rav and Highlander are 100% MADE IN JAPAN. Look at the Camry, I was even suprised myself at the % made in the US. I believe it wasn’t even 50% I seem to recall clser to 40%. I know you will find issues with whatever anyone says that you don’t agree with, but go on Toyotas own Coorperate web site and see for yourself how many Americans Toyota employ here in the US. Less the 24,000 Total! GM, even with the lay offs, STILL employ more Americans that ALL the major Import combined! And you cannot agrue facts!

  35. Cal Lambert says:

    Well, here is my take. I was born in the 40s, raised in the 60s, fought in the war in the 60s, served 26 years active duty military and drove U.S. made vehicles until they started providing us with poor quality, unsafe, and in the shop all the time, new cars back in the 70s and 80s. To top that off, they were so far behind overseas companies technologically, it was pitiful. Anyone remember that? Not that they were dumber, just that they were doing less to make more on our backs. That’s why I switched to Toyotas back in the late 80s. And…I have had both domestic and foreign since. As a matter of fact I drive an 08 Tundra and my wife drives an 07 Chrysler. I have owned dodge, ford, toyota, nissan, and chevy all, in the past 20 years. I can tell you that the domestic trucks/cars I have had can not hold a candle to the foreign made with regards to performance, reliability, economy and maintenance.

  36. Mickey says:

    Cal I can’t agree with you more. If I buy a domestic and it keeps breaking down with loss pay to have that fix why would I stay domestic. Also you people are so worried about the money going to japan why did you buy all those electronics you have at home. You need to state this to the granite/marble in homes etc. The problem lies with a manufacturer that puts out a product that’s reliable and he/she doesn’t have it in the shop all the time. Rebate check Andrew? I bet you didn’t wait to spend that on those GM products. By the way Andrew Toyota doesn’t make a motorcycle. The same bull you are pushing you need to look in the mirror. That’s why the is the land of the free and you can make your own choice. You want people to buy inferior products just because it’s made in America? You need to look what’s happening. Why is Honda and Toyota leading in the small car sales now. Where’s the Big 3? Who’s the one that is brainwashed? You want to know why the economy is bad? Your favorite Americans selling houses to people who can’t afford them along with Leases on vehicles. You mass produce a vehicle for leases and guess what you get? Leftovers of a product no one wants. You eat rice Andrew? Guess what’s imported? You buy gas/oil? Guess where that goes. Blaming this silly game of where the money goes makes all Americans hypocrits. We all buy something that is imported.

  37. Tony says:

    Once again Cal, one mans experiences.
    I know friends that have had both also and they say that there wasn’t much difference. By the way Cal, where do you think the foreign car companies got most of they’re technology in the first place? Thats right domestic car companies, all without having to worry about patents or copyrights or any of that good ol American stuff. Keep buying Foreign made things Cal and others. When the American workers cant contribute to Social Security because they aren’t working, maybe Toyota or the other Foreign companies can kick in where we left off! I don’t think so.

  38. JR says:

    The Ram rates higher in Consumer Reports in reliabilty than does the Tundra. The Ram rated “worse than average” in reliability. However, the Tundra rated “much worse than average” for reliability, the worst possible score; ironically, tied with the Nissan Titan for least reliable fullsized pickup. In a bizarre twist, ALL of the American Brand fullsize truck scored higher in reliability than either of their foreign counterparts. While the Hemi has been on Ward’s 10 best Engines for 5 years straight, the Tundra’s 5.7 liter engine has been dealing with serious issues such as breaking camshafts, and the Toyota’s transmission has “rumble strip” syndrome. Don’t forget the Tundra’s “bed bounce” problem or that its stereo that shuts itself off and on at will! And what about the Jell-O Tripleflex frame? What did that enginering genius net Toyota? How about a 4-star crash-test rating; the worst of ANY fullsize truck out there!! And the Ram, with its years’-old styling and no side and roof airbags? It received a 5-star rating, the highest rating possible!! The truth is the Dodge Ram is really the better truck!! And we’re not even talking about the 2009 version!! Oh, and one more thing, just for you Tundra lovers out there; the Tundra tailgate is flimsy, and literally buckles under weight! That sissy hydraulic assist tailgate must be lightweight, and is not designed as a load-bearing part, so forget loading a golf cart, atv, or motorcycle into the Tundra’s bed (using its tailgate)!! The Ram’s tailgate is heavy, and requires a man’s strength to open and lower. The thing is, you can actually use the Ram’s tailgate as a tailgate!

  39. JR – I would suggest you continue to that Ram of yours so you can avoid all those “problems.” It’s very strange to me that you defend the Ram’s “worse than average” reliability rating as if it were actually good. It sucks. At least Toyota can say it was first model year issues – the 07 Ram hasn’t changed significantly in years. Are you saying that Dodge still can’t make the same truck reliable, even after a million or so tries? Let’s talk about this again when CR releases their 08′ statistics.

  40. Mickey says:

    Tony lay off the B/S. Back in 76-77 I had an 74 Corona SR5 with ESP (Extra Sensory Panel) No domestic 3 had this in theirs. This vehicle had yellow lights fo fluid and red lights for motor, brake and tail lights and brakes themselves. When the brakes wore down this would light up well before you ran out of pads to replace them in time before damage. This vehicle can tell me when my battery water level was too low. How about your radiator and over flow bottle along with your winshield wiper fluid. That had yellow lights when they were low. Non e of your domestic had this in 74 especialy any ov the low price vehicles. That was technology you said they stole from us? Let me flip you a quarter so you can get into the ball park at least. And you can take your Social Security crap to ones who will believe you. Put it simple for you Tony if you build a great product they will come. If you keep it on the road they will stay. Until that happens you will be whining about american made or americans laid off. Look at half the products you probably have in your home. Most of them or made in other countries or even outsourced to other countries. I know you have computers, cell phones, TV’s, electronics etc look to see where they are made then tell me your story again.

  41. Mickey says:

    Jr what consumer reports is this? Was this C/R of April 2008? If so go back and read again. I’ll help you in the reliability your RAM 1500 2wd 02-05 was avg, 06 was 1 step above the worse and 07 was good. Ram 1500 4wd 02 was worse 03-05 was avg, 06-07 was 1 step above worse. Now Tundra 2wd02-05 was the highest, 06 was good, 07was the highest. Tundra 4wd 02-04 was the highest, 05-06 was good, 07 was worse. Now where is that reliability at again? That C/R even tells you what Rams not to by as they put it AVOID. Now on page 82-83 it tells you the BEST OF THE BEST. All Toyota Tundra’s except the 07 4wd. Dodge on any vehicle isn’t even mentioned not even Chrysler. What you read between pages 52 and 73 show one version when you look at pages 75 and on to the back shows you the opposite. Now why is that? C/R contradict’s their own findings and you can plainly see they are sore with Toyota. Toyota did have a recall on driveshafts of 4×4’s so did other truck manufacturer’s which wasn’t mentioned. Oooppps! C/R slipped on that, which didn’t add the whole criteria as you can plainly see C/R had a grudge and they definitely showed who they will back up without even testing it (Silverado 4×4). Jr cut it out about the camshafts you know darn well those were in the prototyupe and didn’t make it to the streets, 20 in all. That ring a bell? How come Dodge didn’t win the safety award that is given by the IIHS Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
    or even this one
    http://usnews.rankingsandrevie.....up-Trucks/ All I can say Jr try again.

  42. Mickey says:

    Jr read the August 2008 section where Chrysler and value of your product. I think someone pulled the drain plug on your company and you got that circular sinking feeling.

  43. JR says:

    In reponse to your comments, the Annual Auto Issue 2008, Consumer Reports, is where the findings are. True enough, th 2wd version of Tundra outscored everybody, including the top-rated Silverado. There were more than the 20 camshafts, I assure you. Several engines were replaced at just one dealership I am well familiar with. The current crop of Tundra issues concerns a torque converter shudder, especially in 4wd models, as if the truck was riding over rumble strips. Other current issues are that the OEM stereos are turning themselves on and off at will; and of course the inevitable tailgate issues. The sheetmetal is thin on the tailgate, and not welded where the top lip of the gate is. This makes for easy warping or buckling lest any significant weight be placed on the tailgate. I’d rather live with a heavy tailgate than one I couldn’t actually use! And (just when you thought it- the problems- were over) the environmentally-safe water-based paint Tundra uses is apparently paper-thin, scratches extremely easily, and shows an orange-peel texture throughout the vehicles’ surfaces. In fact, there’s actually an online petition to get Toyota to do something about it. And don’t forget, comrades, that the ONLY reason Toyota AND Nissan even build their trucks over here is to avoid the 25% “Chicken Tax” that their vehicles would otherwise be nailed with if they were imported. And don’t think for a second since they currently build in the USA, that someday they won’t pull the plug, and send production back to mother Japan! Look at Honda! For years, the Goldwing was proudly “Made in the USA”, and what happened, most recently?! They pulled ALL motorcycle production out of Marysville, Ohio, and sent it straight back to the homeland- Japan! So before you tout the fact that Tundra has more American content, remember, it does only RIGHT NOW (in terms of content), but that could change down the road. If Toyota (and Honda) finishes obliterating the American automakers, what then? And remember, Japan is the source of the non-US parts in Tundra; the major source of non-US parts in Ram is Mexico. Although Mexico isn’t the USA, it IS part of America!! (North America). Ultimately, the Ram, which itself isn’t a perfect truck, contributes more to America, job-wise, and economy-wise than Toyota’s Tundra. When the dust settles, the Tundra IS a Japanese Truck made in America by a Japanese-owned company! Japan controls that truck’s fortunes, not the USA!!! The Ram is an American-made (ok, Mexico, part of North America, actually assmbles the Hemi engines, but the trucks, half-tons anyway, are built in either Missouri or Michigan), truck, owned by an American company, and the USA decides the Ram’s fortunes!! Chrysler does not have the insane cash reserves Toyota does, and neither does anybody else!! But all in all, currently, the Ram does, overall, considering BOTH 4×4 and 2wd, rate higher IN CONSUMER REPORTS (annual auto issue, 2008) than does Tundra!!! Stop looking at the little charts in the back of the magazine; it’s under the individual vehicle ratings and recommendations! By the same token, I think Dodge’s 2009 Ram, although superior in specifications, may fare worse than the current 2008 version! Anyway, I’m in the industry, and have connections to both companies, although you bring up a good argument.

  44. Anonymous says:

    Apparently Mr. Jr you read what makes you think you got something. You can RAM that buy america B/S up you know where. Everyone of you who don’t like a Toyota that’s your first response. If your god forbid Big 3 built a good product that was reliable and backed it then we can go from there. Also you forgot the one thing in America the right to choose. You’re not going to take my right away because you want to whine about built in America. I say again Before you open your mouth look at all your products at home and see how much is american made. Also your own fellow americans did this to themselves by being overpaid for their work in Unions. SO don’t give us this line crap about Mexico and Canada and Toyota moving back. The last truck I had 06 Silverado I needed to go buy Craftsman metric tools to work on your so call american product. Half SAE half metric. What dumb engineer come up with that? Being it was a troubled truck and having to buy metric tools who paved the way to go all metric? You may want to pay $20-30,000 for a product that lasts maybe 4-6 years and deal with all problems this guy doesn’t want to do that again. Jr do you want me to mention your recalls? Why didn’t Consumer Reports go after your YOKE breaks recall which can cause a major crash on your recall dated 10/22/07? How can you have a recall on your back and side glass on your trucks? That there my friend is a quality issue. C/R failed to report on your driveshaft issues. Why is that? Why doesn’t your RAM have any safety side air bags? You want to claim your truck is safer? Who are you kidding with that junk? Anyone who read Consumer Reports that wasn’t biased on any trucks can see who C/R was gunning for. But yet when you add up the back pages which you don’t of course shows your Ram rated lower than the Tundra. As I said before C/R contradicted themselves with that issue magazine. Tell me something else JR how can you rank a truck the best and you don’t test it much less mention there recalls also? As of the paint issue and you seen that petition well you may call it that please tell me all the info. Especially why over half the people who signed it did not file a complaint and they cause the damages themselves and you know no manufacturer will fix a problem that was caused by the consumer. I’ll give you some examples because I read them. Cat claws scratches paint on a lifted truck. Going into the woods where limbs hit side of truck paint damage. Rubbing a metal garbage bin against the truck scratches occur. Hitting the side of the truck with a metal basket now have scratches. Man puts plastic bedliner in truck and then removes it himself causes scratches. Man puts cardboard box in bed removes and forgot to look on bottom the staples sticking out scratches bed. These are an example of the owners doing it to themselves. I don’t expect any manufacturer to fix these people’s problems. They want something for nothing. Yes I have a rock chip on my hood. I did have one on my 06 Silverado I don’t blame Toyota or GM. I used the touch up paint and have no problems with it. Very few I mean very few had the bubbles and peeling paint. That list didn’t even have 200 people on it. The tailgate I have never been replaced and I stand on it regularly and with my riding mower to clean and change blades. I don’t have that issue. Actually I applaud Toyota for the damper system on the tailgate. We know GM is notorious for the cable breaking on the tailgate and it’s too late when it hits the bumper. It’s a good arguement like you said and tried to put up but it doesn’t fly. Individual recommendations should come from all aspects about the vehicle which is what the back has and you refuse to see.

  45. Mickey says:

    Jr my comments above. Power failure during these storms we are having.

  46. JR says:


    I looked at the following website:
    and, to my amazement, Chrysler is literally the”Most American” of ALL automakers!! The Dodge Ram provides 83 JPC (Jobs Per Car), higher than Toyota by far (34 JPC), and even higher than Ford or Chevrolet! I liked their slogan, “What you drive, drives America.” I always knew in my heart Dodge is really the most American of all pickups, and The Level Field Institute proves I’m right! After all, Chrysler’s Jim Press, ditched Toyota after 30+ years! He may have made his wealth with Toyota, but his heart is with Chrysler!

    In another news flash, Toyota WILL NOT resume production of the Tundra at the Princeton, Ind plant come November. Rather, Tundra production will resume at the new plant in San Antonio, TX. Also, Dodge begins delivering the all-new 2009 Rams this week to dealers! 390 hp and 407 lb-ft torque vaults the Hemi back to the top of the class (Not counting the low-production 403 hp GMC Sierra). Take that, you TRD’S!

  47. JR – We raised this point in another post, but the Level Field Institute’s numbers compare brand to brand, not vehicle to vehicle. While Toyota may employ fewer American workers to manufacture the average Toyota model compared to the average Chrysler model, that’s not the whole issue. When it comes to figuring out whether or not the Ram is more American, the correct comparison would be “How many American workers Toyota employs to build a Tundra” compared to “How many American workers Chrysler employs to build a Ram.” Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure that Chrysler still wins, but I doubt the difference would be so profound.

  48. Tony says:

    Well your wrong again Jason,
    Here are the scores which do compare by vehicle. The link is on the right just in case all you Toy lovers dont believe us STILL.

    Dodge-Dodge Ram 83 JPC
    Ford-F Series 81 JPC
    Chevrolet-Chevy Silverado 72 JPC
    Toyota-Tundra 32 JPC

    As you can see, CLEARLY Toyota does not employ even HALF as many AMERICAN workers as you would all like to think they do.


  49. Mickey says:

    Jr and Tony I really don’t care how many Americans work at any plant. As I mention before we have the right to choose what we like and what is reliable. Where does your bottom dollar go? I distinctly remember some German company owns Dodge Chrysler. Now you can’t complain about Toyota being in Japan getting american dollars when your German company owns yours. Your other problem which you failed to mention why Chrysler now doesn’t do leases and is on the verge of Bankruptcy. Is it too many people per car to make a chrysler or Dodge? I would agree. Along with your Unions is what did your Big 3 in.

  50. Mickey says:

    By the way Tony America has awaken and you Big 3 lovers are on a verge of extinctiion. America has evolved. That’s why there is choice.

  51. Tony says:

    Hey Mickey, Why is it that every Uninformed simple minded person that owns a foreign vehicle falls back on the same excuses ” I have the right to buy what I want” “I had an American auto company car that was a piece of *%@p” Blah, Blah, Blah. Same old whining. That was the old auto industry. How many tools have you bought made out of this country that weren’t worth the money they used to package them. Poison kids toys ring a bell? How about other purchases that you have made where the item is junk Long before it should be. Americans want vehicles that have all the toys in them, fancy electronics that control everthing, and then dont expect things to go wrong when you drive them over pot holes, through snow, through a 8″ puddle, and 100 degree heat, etc. Try doing that with some of the electronics in your home and see how long they last.
    When they say Jobs per car, they dont mean how many Union workers it takes, they mean how many Americans it takes ( suppliers included) to make that vehicle. They are trying to show you the trickle down effect.
    Keep chosing foreign over domestic WHATEVER the product is, and the only choices you’ll have is asking people “would you like fries with that”. Or maybe thats what you already do, showing why your so bitter towards someone who makes a decent living.
    I would love to see some of you whiners working on the line, you wouldn’t last a week! It’s hard, tetious work. Have you ever heard of an overpaid Union Worker getting a multi-million dollar signing bonus or severence package? I didnt think so, CORPORATE GREED is what is killing America, Not the American Worker.
    Mr uninformed, Cerberus owns controlling interest in Chrysler, Cerberus is an American company. Try to get the facts straight before you spout off.

  52. Tony – If you read my comment carefully, you’ll see that I was trying to point out is that the Level Field Institutes JPC rating is for the entire company – it’s not on a vehicle by vehicle basis. The site says “The JPC Rating is calculated by dividing the total number of cars sold by an automaker in the U.S. by the company’s U.S. workforce.”

    In other words, the JPC rating of a Toyota Tundra (built in the U.S.) is going to be higher than 32, but the JPC rating on a Scion xB (built in Japan) is going to be zero. As I said before, if you compared a Tundra to a Ram, I would guess the numbers would be a lot closer to even. Still, I’m sure that Dodge employs more American workers…for now. Let’s hope that they stay in business, otherwise their JPC rating will be zero.

    As for your assertion that corporate greed ruined the auto industry, I pity you. While greedy execs are to blame, so are corrupt union leaders and lazy workers. There’s more than enough blame to go around, but the bottom line is this. The “more American” argument is stupid and meaningless – that’s the point of this post. Hence the “just kidding” at the end.

  53. Tony says:

    Oh please tell me how corrupt Union leaders possibly cost the companies money. As far as the lazy workers, it’s apparent you have Never worked on an assembly line. Can you get smashed, mamed, exposed to toxic chemicals, or have joints in your body of an 80 year old at 50 because of the work You do? Please once again if you dont know what your talking about, dont say anything. Us greedy lazy workers opened our contracts up to renegotiate when we didnt have to just to try to help. We bypassed 3 negotiated raises just to try to help. What do we get, management getting bigger bonus’. You people really believe what you say, only problem is, you havent a clue what is really going on.

  54. Mickey says:

    Tony no if’s and’s or butts you’re the one who whining and complaining. You are going to sit there and tell us you have no foreign products in your home? As far as tools I had to buy Craftsman metric for your american products. I bought Craftsman because I had a choice which you feel I shouldn’t have. If your big 3 would make something reliable then you would see a change. So go cry on someone else’s shoulder. Poison kids toys? How far are you going to reach? So you hold it against someone if they want a luxury vehicle? You have a problen Tony. That’s called choice again and who’s rambling along with their whining? Before you go talking working on a line I have news for you guy I did that back in 77-82 working for United Steelworkers Union local 13,000 working at Kaiser Aluminum. The plant shutdown in 82 because the union was asked to take a pay cut. The union said no so the plant was built in Africa and where did the jobs go. Tony you not the only one who works at a demanding job in america. Oh by the way who is corporate america? Isn’t this american workers also? I see now you are the union worker who loses out when we don’t buy an American big 3 automobile. Well you put yourself in that position no one else did. I say again build a better product then we will come until then take the pain of losing and cry somewhere else.

  55. Tony says:

    Well the truth comes out! Someones still bitter about the eighties. Unlike your union, ours did take pay cuts. As far as foreign products in my home, that is my whole point! How many other good paying jobs do people want to see leave this country. The pay custs didnt effect me because I am in the skilled trades, but it surely effected alot of people and businesses around the area. If nobody has good paying jobs, they dont need your products or services. So the big question is, when all the higher paying jobs leave the states, what kind of “service industry” are we going to become.
    When I say corporate America, I mean the management side. Did you get a big severence package when you lost your job at the Kaiser? I’ll bet some if not all of the higher ups did. It happens everyday, look up CEO’s salaries. Do you honestly think one person should make hundreds of millions of dollars a year?
    As far as the quality of the American cars goes, the same companies that used to praise your Toyotas are now saying that the domestics are on par with the imports. So should we not believe the same people who said your vehicles were good, because they are talking about the domestic automakers now?
    Are you sure your Craftsmen tools are made in America? They outsourced those for a while also. Huskey brand is made in the USA just so you know, and yes I do buy American products ANY time I can.
    So just because someone says something YOU don’t like, that doesn’t mean that they are whining.

  56. Andrew says:

    Tony, Well said, although trying to tell Mickey anything is a waste of your time! I agree with you on the Domestic’s are at the very least equal if not better, than the Imports. I buy American “Whenever I can” although, thanks to people like Mickey, it is getting harder and harder to find. Mickey thinks it is great that we buy Foriegn owned products, I don’t! I have not had ANY of the issues or even heard any other the issues he claims he has experienced. He had troubles with Both GM and Ford, but for some reason he hasn’t with his TuRD. He must have been fired from GM or something, since he seems to have it out for them and anyone who has been happy with their decision to buy American.

  57. Tony – Your point about working on the line is well taken. I’ve never done it, I don’t know what it’s like, and I genuinely admire and appreciate anyone who works hard to make an honest living. Having said that, I can’t *believe* you don’t find that the UAW is at least partly to blame for the current state of the American auto industry. How can you argue that union leaders haven’t hurt US auto manufacturers (and their workers) and at the same time brag about all the raises you got in the 80’s? Nothing personal, but no one in the American auto industry should have been getting anything more than a cost of living raise in the 80’s. After all, the 80’s were the decade where GM, Chrysler, and Ford all lost market share to the Japanese. Quality was atrocious! The Japanese were beating the US automakers in every possible aspect. This isn’t opinion – this is fact. Executives were ABSOLUTELY to blame for this, and I think the 80’s corporate leadership at the domestics should be jailed for their incompetence. But, by the same token, auto execs weren’t building the cars with the low quality. UAW workers were. I’m not blaming you – I’m not blaming anyone – but the facts are this: The UAW and the corporate leaders at Ford, GM, and Chrysler are all to blame for what’s happening to these companies right now. If Toyota and Honda hadn’t grabbed market share in the 80’s and 90’s, someone else would have. I think that you’re right about the execs being mostly responsible, but the UAW certainly shouldn’t get a pass.
    Andrew – No personal attacks please – thanks.

  58. Andrew says:

    Just returning what has been given out. Sorry, I will be good.

  59. Andrew says:

    I in no way give the UAW a free pass, but all in all, isn’t this the way our Country has been going? Buisness want to get as much money for their product as they can and cut cost where they can. The UAW just made sure the BIG Execitives were not reaping all the rewards and not taking care of the ones who got them there. When Huffy moved from Ohio to China, did we see any decrease in the cost of buying bikes? No. The UAW (AT THE TIME) was getting as much as they could for the worker on the lines. Why do we blame just workers who want to make as much money and benifiets as they can, but look away when it comes to paying CEO’s HUGE bonuses, when the company does well? I blame ALL parties involved, but that said if you think Toyota or Honda are any different, you are nutz. Although, Honda may not have the UAW to deal with, they still do the very same thing.
    I say, If you want to sell here, you have to make it here. I will give Toyota and Honda some credit, although, I won’t say they are American, just because they have a building or two here, they are still owned by a Foriegn company and that is the bottom line. My Chevy is company owned and assembled here in America, Bottom Line!

  60. Mickey says:

    Andrew and Tony since we’re on this subject why don’t we just close the borders on all visa’s and any aliens. Who will you get to pick the vegetables in the fields or build our US homes etc. Do the jobs that us great Americans refuse to do because we are above that. This is what you two are preaching. You want to blame CEO’s that’s fine with me. Now I guess we should send all CEO’s a ticket to leave the country so they won’t take all the profits. This sounds familiar….OOhhh Yes the oil companies. Excuse me you two that’s free enterprise. Andrew I will be more than happy to send you the pics of that great american product you don’t believe can happen. Now is this the way your new truck should be after only 2 weeks?

  61. Tony says:

    Jason said “Having said that, I can

  62. Tony – I think we’re on the same page. The corporate idiots that led GM, Ford, and Chyrsler in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, and even today are largely to blame for the current state of the American auto industry. The UAW has a role too, but the size of that role is up for debate. Historically, unions have been a really good thing. Unions helped create child labor laws, OSHA (as you say), the 40 hour work week, the concepts of disability care, retirement, etc. However, like anything, unions have also overstepped their bounds on occasion. Demanding raises in the 90’s despite shrinking market share (and threatening to strike when they didn’t come) was irresponsible. The argument that it was OK because “the CEOs are doing it” doesn’t fly with me – when your kid tells you that they did something wrong because everyone else was doing it too, you don’t give them a break. THAT’s why I think the union was part of the problem (among other things). Anyways, we still come back to this one point – the Ram has fewer domestic parts than the Tundra. All things being equal, buying a Ram probably is better for the U.S. economy than buying a Tundra, but the difference isn’t near as profound as the “buy America” crowd would like us all to believe. I’m certainly not convinced. Maybe if Toyota and Chrysler both released exact figures on how many workers build each vehicle, how the revenue is spent, where it is spent, etc., we’d know for sure. Until then, we’re just guessing. But the domestic content sticker certainly lends a little credibility to our argument.

  63. Mickey says:

    Tony I agree with what you said. Also I did work for a Union back in 77-82. In 81, I had an issue with the factory which I was going by the guidelines set forth and was handed a 3 day suspension with a meeting on the 3rd day with the company, and the Union walked out on me. I was a shop steward for the Union and they walk out on me. From that day on I was out of the Union never to support them again. So I’m not big on Unions. Not to mention I was black balled till the plant shutdown in 82.

  64. Tony says:

    Jason & Mickey,
    I must be in a good mood today because I have to AGREE with what you both said. Mickey I dont blame you for being bitter about the Union, I think anyone in your former situation would be. But trust me when I say, that todays UAW is nothing like the UAW of the past. Take a look at how much the Union membership does for the community. They have volunteers building houses, they sent teams of people after Katrina to help, regular Blood Drives, UAW/FORD have collected $400,000 for Juvenile Diabetes so far this year, and much more. They continue to do this even though their industry is falling apart, and know that some of the people they are helping have the same negative thoughts about the Union as some on this board do. I know you all read the headlines, so you have heard about the landmark negotiations that just took place last year. I think that in itselfs says a ton about the new UAW.
    So in closing YES the old UAW was bad, but the new UAW is definately going in the right direction.

  65. Tony – LOL – I hear what you’re saying. You’ve made some great points, and I think you’re right about today’s union being different. My guess is that most of the automakers are now all on the road to recovery, but the marketplace is still really tough. Let’s hope everyone makes it through to the next economic boom.

  66. Mickey says:

    Tony I will agree with you and also I have no clue in todays union. It’s great to see no matter who help build communities/houses. I took part in Habitat for Humanity in Rhode Island when I was in the Navy and it took us 8-9 months from start to finish working Wednesday’s and Saturdays from dawn to dusk. The satisfaction was I was there when the ribbon cutting was done and how many hours I put in was mention along with the tow contractors doing the project. All I wanted to learn was how to built the roof on the frame. Never done it before and that’s why I did it. Yes it’s admirable in hard times for people to help out in time of needs. Yes my family got hit hard from Katrina. I’m from New Orleans and I was raised 10 miles to the east. A place which wasn’t highlighted at all but was flooded for weeks up to the roofs of houses. Yes I loss one aunt who refuse to leave. They had at least 17 levee breaks over there and all they showed was New Orleans and the 9th ward. Well you go at least 2 miles further east and you can see water to roofs. My mom’s house was picked up off it’s foundation and moved 6 inches. My brother’s house was gutted and he rebuilt but he has no neighbors just slabs. My sister loss her vacation house by the lake. When I said loss all 18 homes in that place was totally missing. Nothing but slabs.There’s too much to list what happened there that people don’t know about and was never reported. The parish (county) where I grew up at finally got their first grocery store to open this summer. It’s still a ghost town. Well enough of that. That’s why I will never go back and live in New Orleans. I’ll visit but will never stay there again.

  67. Tony says:

    Yes Katrina was a horrible event. Alot of people lost their lives literally and lost what ever else they did have. It doesnt surprise me that your area and others weren’t on the news. Like I have said before, they put what they want you to hear. Thats one reason I never trust the news. I mean heck, they cant even get the weather right! Anyway sorry to hear about you and your families losses, and I hope the people of Louisiana can get back to normal lives. I made a mistake in my earlier post, the 400,000 for Juvenille Diabetes, is actually 405,000 for the March of Dimes. I got confused because they raise funds for both.

  68. Tony says:

    Oh yeah, and your also right that it doesn’t matter who helps, as long as people do help.

  69. Mickey says:

    Thanks Tony appreciate it. I forgot to mention to see that’s mom’s face and the two kids were a moment to appreciate.

  70. Jeff says:

    I am so tired of this bull shit
    The Money goes to Japan for Toyota
    The money goes to the USA for the big 3
    Is Sushi Japanese or American if it is made in America?
    You got it, it is still Japanese if Sushi is made in America
    So the Big 3 is still USA no matter where it is made
    End of you BS

  71. Mickey says:

    Wow, well entertaining Jeff.

  72. Japlover says:

    American corporations want me to be a consumer and spend my money before I even earn it. If I finance an American-built Japanese vehicle at an American bank, American workers and bankers are profiting; there is no doubt about it. This is a global economy. Buy the best product.

  73. Japlover – Here here. Well said.

  74. Mickey says:

    Well put….Short and to the point….

  75. Tony says:

    Ok here I go again,
    So the Jap car companies dont want you to spend you money before you make it? If buying Japanese or other foreign cars and products is good for the global economy, why are american banks doing so poorly? Does global economy mean being as poor as the majority of the rest of the globe used to be? The rich get richer, the poor get poorer and the middle class becomes the new poor.

    Wake up, I dont think you all are that blind are you.

    You really need to quit believing the foreign cars are better hype. My best friend owns a civic, its 4 years old 60000 miles, and just needed a new head gasket, has had 3 sets of front struts and various other problems. The mechanic told him that it wasn’t uncommon. Doesn’t sound like a superior product to me.

  76. Mickey says:

    Let’s see why banks are doing poorly….Bad investments, Foreclosures, Repo’s. Like you said open your eyes. Now if you make only $26,000 a year what makes you think you can afford a $300,000 home? Bankers made the decision along with the home owner putting them down a path to failure. Bankers knowingly that the homeowner can’t afford it stretched it out to where they can afford it for 5 years then the intrest kicks in. Now these are both Americans…. Imagine that Americans ripping off Americans…. As I told my friend today after my debacle with Ford and then GM, I would rather my hard earned money go to a Jap company if it gives me peace of mind and not having to be at the dealership at least 3x a month. I have 38,000 miles and I bought it in July 07. My truck runs great and gets better mpg then what your American commercial for Chevy does. Imagine that a big block engine getting 23mpg. While chevy stating their small block gets 21mpg. What you forget is Free Enterprise and the Freedom of CHOICE. Just because you state save our economy Well I’m happy to say I helped put food on the table which was bought by the Toyota factory worker, along with the American workers at my Credit Union for doing my loan. Not to mention the workers at the dealership which I guess must have a green card because when I joke and say raid I don’t get my oil change done. Not to mention all those personnel that use healthcare that comes from their pay which comes from the money at the Credit Union which comes from me to buy that product. Now my US job helps pay for my truck… I know this one will hurt you but I must say it. Tony I do appreciate you in buying my truck for me. Ohh yes I retired military so thanks for paying your taxes which in turns you paying for my truck… I can’t thank you so much. Now who’s paying for what and where? Now you see how dang silly this can get with that B/S.

  77. Tony says:

    That explains alot. Retired military, ” Ohh yes I retired military” let me guess you were part of the biggest oxymoron “military intellegence”. 23 MPG what do you do drive down hill 80% of the time. Tundras dont get that. Enough said. Well maybe one last thing. Did you help train the poor schlubs that cant even find one sick guy running around in sandals? Talk about over paid job security!

  78. Mickey says:

    Tony you definitely show how much a fool you really are. Tony I didn’t work in Intelligence which I can say you have none. Just because you don’t drive 55 doesn’t mean you can’t get 23 mpg. It’s called flat land to get the most out of a vehicle. While you’re at it you can tell my wife she doesn’t get 60-62 mpg in her Prius too. I really don’t give a hoot if you believe it or not. Tony I’m happy you enjoy your freedom’s to talk down to military people. Now I fully understand why you don’t believe anything but your Bullsh*t you hand out. It’s funny you come to a site you despise so much, to say what you want, because you know that’s your Freedom. By the way which is provided by these poor schlubs and oxymoron military intelligence people. What gets me the most is that I took what you wrote for the reasons why we should buy american and I showed you how american we all are and for some reason you don’t like it. What I do like is on the 1st of every month I thank you Tony for paying me to stay home and support the american economy. You keep paying those taxes so I can keep supporting the American people who build Toyota’s. The bankers who give us the loans. Now Tony who is the real schlub now? Call me what you want but I will still get your money to pay the banker who pays Toyota who pays the american worker at the factory. Now that you feel like the donkey’s rear don’t go away mad….You know the rest of the story……

  79. Tony – What’s with the personal attack? What’s with the hate for retired military? It’s sad that you’ve lowered yourself (and your argument) to such a poor standard.

  80. Tony says:

    Its not hate for the military, I have alot of family that is/was in the military.
    What I dont like is people who “pose” as intellegent and try to taunt people with wiseas* comments, and lies. Just showing what a wiseas* I can really be.
    IF someone wants to talk minus the bullsh*t and hype I am more than happy to oblige. And as far as our freedoms go, I always thank military people I know or see. I just dont like the ones who think there American, but dont support their own Country, State, Town.

    Freedom….hmmm kind of going away little by little.

    These people that you believe you are supporting by buying a Toyota or other foreign vehicle, would have had jobs in American Auto companies. Plus the profits that were earned would have STAYED mostly in the US. Reinvested in the communities that they belong to. How many people did it take to finance your vehicle? 1, 2? WOW thats supporting the community. You can preach all you want, but even the media tells you there is no gap in the quality now. And you all believe the media, you have shown me that by other various comments that have been posted.

  81. Anonymous says:

    Tony there is no way of talking to you. You come on here to tell us what to buy, and how we are hurting our economy. You have the gall to say that we or I “pose” as intelligent and lie! The only lie out of my last post could be that I assumed you pay your taxes. Your statements tell another story Tony calling the military oxymoron “military intelligence” and schlubs that can’t find someone. Then you say you don’t hate the military? You have your own agenda and you want to take my right of choice in what I want to buy. Now you’re going to tell me you don’t own any electronics and or appliances. Ohh yes I really believe the media also… So you’re saying the one or two people at the Credit Union aren’t worth helping in the US? To you it sounds like put up the walls and keep everything inside. What you forgot your manufacturers need outside help. Case in point is the auto parts, or how about the oil to run your auto or keep your house warm/cool if need be. At least I’m trying so save as much as I can with my truck with it’s unbelieveable 23mpg. As far as quality goes I haven’t seen it from the Ford and GM vehicles I had. I guess what you’re really getting at is, I should still buy a vehicle from a manufacturer which I had so many problems with, and just stick it out right?

  82. Mickey says:

    My comments above. Power failure knock out the name when I re-wrote the comment. By the way another Ford hit the light pole which knock out the power. Another thing Tony which you don’t care for is someone who sticks up for this website and the truck itself. Most people that come on here aren’t Toyota lovers.

  83. Quant analyst says:

    I know this argument is ages old but i think this may be worth mentioning in the argument (not that anyone is still reading)… There is a major difference between Dodge and Toyota. Dodge is a wholly owned subsidiary of Chrysler, a privately owned company. Toyota is a publicly owned company. Yes, it is incorporated in Japan but technically owned, and paying dividends to anyone who wishes to be a part owner (investor). Generally a privately owned company answers to, and is only responsibly in reporting to its self. Publicly owned companies have to report and answer to all their share holders. Furthermore, if the shareholders of a publically owned company are unhappy with the way it is being run or literally any aspect they can come together and lobby for changes within the company. This can be anything from McDonalds getting rid of Styrofoam packaging or booting the CEO, CFO or other directors all together. Long point short publicly owned companies like Toyota, Ford and GM are companies owned by the people all of us who choose to own a piece of them, not just Americans or Japanese or any one country, nationality or ethnicity. That could make no difference to you whatsoever, just wanted to throw that out there.

    Side point, both the companies are trying to provide the best vehicle they can for their consumers. Both companies pump millions back into the communities where they sell their product (prob for tax benefits). They know the American consumer now cares about how the company gives back to teh community and are trying to do their best to produce and sell a product us Americans can feel good about owning. which is a really good thing, it wasn’t always like this, companies used to just see their product for profit and not care or the consumers didn’t care. Now if a company uses child labor, or other things we don’t like the company must completely change or it will fail cuz we the consumer disagree with its practices.

    hope you’re happy w/ your car regardless of what you drive. And i hope the auto industry doesn’t have to cut any more jobs, this economy is killing everyone.

  84. Tony says:

    My, my….sure is quiet since ALL of the auto companies are doing poorly…

    Quant analyst, are you kidding me? Have you seen the work conditions for the Chinese workers? NO safety equipment, no safety practices at all. So that means its ok to submit an adult to those conditions? Child labor is a no-no, but so should NOT caring about ANY of your employees. That is why the Union was started along with all of the safety organizations. People can bash the union all they want, but if it wasnt for them, things would be a lot worse off than they are in the workplace.

    Just a question, what good does it do to be publicly owned? Most people arent going to have enough shares to convince the board of anything, and the people who do have enough are the ones making the bad decisions in the first place. The average share holder doesnt have the means to get anything done.
    Once again, just my thoughts.

  85. Mickey says:

    Just my thoughts Tony unions are a past thing. Get use to it. Just because it’s union doesn’t mean it’s a better product.

  86. Tony says:

    There’s a surprise, Mickey missed the point once again.
    Try actually reading what I post instead of just one line…….
    We’ll see about the Union issue though. Your Toyotas and Nissans and others have recalls and problems and they’re not unionized, so whats going on there? Maybe a Union conspriracy, sabotage perhaps……

  87. Mickey says:

    Tony one line leads to a sentence which leads to a paragraph it’s the same don’t side step it. As you speak your Big 3 has issues themselves. I’m also talking about quality not bail out. Which leads me to say they have more companies without unions than they have companies with unions.

  88. Tony says:

    Mickey, quit sidestepping yourself. My comment about the Union was…
    “People can bash the union all they want, but if it wasnt for them, things would be a lot worse off than they are in the workplace.” That comment has NOTHING TO DO WITH QUALITY OR HOW MANY COMPANIES HAVE UNIONS.

  89. Mickey says:

    Tony that depends on the company also. There’s alot of non union companies that strive in safety also so don’t think you’re unions are the only ones that kept the workplace safe or the ones who started the safety drive and work conditions.

  90. mlite90 says:

    Toyota employs 37,000 worker DIRECTLY in the US, not 7000 as someone said earlier. And they are responsible for 400,000 ‘spin-off’ jobs in the US as well. Tehy are one of the biggest investors in America the last 10 years. All there profit s go back into making new plants, new parts suppliers, puting Americans to work, who, in turn, spend that money in American and put that money into US banks.

    This is global world not 1950. GM invest billions in new plants in Moscow and other parts of the world. They all do it. With some these people logic, should GM or Ford or whoever build more plants here in the US?

  91. Tony says:

    Mickey, the start of the unions were because of fair work rules, safety, etc. They were started at companies that didnt have them, so look at it how you want.

    Get real all of their profits? They all use a lot of the same suppliers, so its not just Toyota. Really, all of this info has been all over the news.

  92. Tony says:

    I found this quite interesting. It debunks the statement of all profits being spent here, and also makes me wonder why the Japanese workers are worthy of a Union, but its American counterparts are not.

  93. Quant Analyst – Good points. It’s very important to remember that Toyota, GM, Ford, and others are publicly owned and traded companies. It’s hard to argue a geographic bias when so many companies are internationally owned, managed, and located. For example, Ford has earned more profits in Europe than they have in the USA in the past few years, does that make them a European company? (rhetorical) No, but it doesn’t make them a “U.S.” company either. They’re both. Never hurts to state the obvious – thanks for commenting.

  94. Tony – Not sure why you launched into Quant’s comments with an attack on some Chinese labor conditions. I think your points about the value of unions are well taken, but I think you should re-read the article you posted a link to. It states quite clearly that GM spends 17-18% of revenue on labor while Toyota spends only 10%. While it’s true that Toyota has a labor union to contend with in Japan, Toyota isn’t asking for a government handout to get by. If you want to compare Japanese unions and the UAW, you have to recognize the UAW has a major role in the complete and total melt-down of the domestic auto industry. Don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of parties that are responsible (a string of bad CEO’s take the cake), but UAW workers seem over-compensated by any measure. If they were paid less, GM, Ford, and Chrysler might all be better off right now.

  95. Mickey says:

    No need to say more…

  96. Tony says:

    If what you say is true Jason, then why all of the sudden is the Unions wages/benefits the cause, when they havent gotten a raise in 6 years? Please enlighten me. Is it because thats what they said on TV? Also they have around a third of the employees they did 10 years ago and are making the same amount of vehicles, so labor costs should be a non issue.Your logic hasnt a leg to stand on.

    Mickey keeping his mouth shut? Is there a full moon, or are they planets all lined up or something?

  97. Tony says:

    Forgot to mention, the date on that article is MARCH 15, 2006, things have changed since then. Through buyouts, retirement and other factors.

    My point was, why does Japan even have unions if they are so against them here? Because of the same reasons they were started here. Not greed, but safety, fair labor practices and other reasons.

  98. Mickey says:

    I’m sure the unions got a pay raise even if it’s a cost of living raise. No one will work on the same amount for 6 years without some compensation like cost of living.

  99. Tony says:

    Yes Mickey we did get cost of living. Although, I still cannot figure out how they figure it out. The average was around 10 cents every quarter, even when gas went up to 4 dollars a gallon and a gallon of milk was 3.60.

  100. Tony – Let me see if I understand what you’re saying. You say that “If what you say is true Jason, then why all of the sudden is the Unions wages/benefits the cause, when they havent gotten a raise in 6 years?”, yet the article you cited from 3 YEARS AGO cited GM’s labor costs as nearly twice as high as Toyota’s. A three year old article that YOU linked to says that labor costs are an issue…that doesn’t sound like “all of the sudden” to me. To your point that “they have around a third of the employees they did 10 years ago and are making the same amount of vehicles, so labor costs should be a non issue” I can only point you to the recent government bailout agreement that stipulates labor costs should fall to match competing non-union plants. If you’re wondering how labor costs are “still” an issue, check out this link (only 3 months old):
    How you can argue that labor costs are “all of a sudden” a “non-issue” is borderline insanity.

  101. Tony says:

    Jason My answer to you is…

    Only 1 1/2 months old.

  102. Tony – The way I read that article, it says pretty clearly that the labor costs for domestic manufacturers are higher than for everyone else. While wages are “close,” UAW benefits are more generous than those given to workers at competing auto companies. The “legacy costs” as explained in the article are a result of, and I quote from your article, “over the years both management and labor made some truly awful decisions while postponing the inevitable reckoning with economic reality.” I think that proves my point that labor costs have and still are an issue, and are definitely not something that popped up “all of the sudden,” nor are they a “non-issue.” As a matter of fact, the article you provided a link to says the exact same thing that my comment did back on the 20th.

  103. Tony says:

    Once again you have taken things out of context. This is what it ACTUALLY says.

    “Management and labor in Detroit should have figured out a solution it long ago. But while the Big Three were late in addressing this problem, they did address it eventually.

    Notice how, in this article, I’ve constantly referred to 2007 figures? There’s a good reason. In 2007, the Big Three signed a breakthrough contract with the United Auto Workers (UAW) designed, once and for all, to eliminate the compensation gap between domestic and foreign automakers in the U.S.

    The agreement sought to do so, first, by creating a private trust for financing future retiree benefits–effectively removing that burden from the companies’ books. The auto companies agreed to deposit start-up money in the fund; after that, however, it would be up to the unions to manage the money. And it was widely understood that, given the realities of investment returns and health care economics, over time retiree health benefits would likely become less generous.

    In addition, management and labor agreed to change health benefits for all workers, active or retired, so that the coverage looked more like the policies most people have today, complete with co-payments and deductibles. The new UAW agreement also changed the salary structure, by creating a two-tiered wage system. Under this new arrangement, the salary scale for newly hired workers would be lower than the salary scale for existing workers.”

    Notice the part about they keep refering to 2007. Quit trying to Spin things to the way You think they are.

  104. ron says:

    Toyota i s not an an American company !

  105. Mickey says:

    Ron but the trucks are made here. Whether or not who’s the parent comapny Some Toyota’s are made here. Also an article at the 2009 Car show had the first Hybrid in the US was made here in the US by Toyota. If you do your research Ron you will see that Toyota is more American made than what your counterparts want you to believe.

  106. Tony – Somehow I missed your comment from the 25th – my apologies. I don’t think you’ve got a leg to stand on if you’re saying that the UAW is in line with non-union plants in terms of labor costs. Regardless of the concessions made in the 2007 agreement, the fact remains that UAW workers earn more than non-UAW workers for performing the same job. “Earnings” can be manipulated – just as you’ve said – so I suppose it’s possible that somewhere someone is trying to make the UAW look bad. Still, the recent concessions made just this last week by UAW leadership indicate that the UAW is indeed overcompensated. If the leaders of the union are giving away compensation, they must feel the union is overcompensated.
    It’s also worth noting the UAW agreed to a two-tier salary structure in 2007. Why would they allow younger workers to earn significantly less than older workers unless there was a flaw in the system? I don’t understand how you can think labor costs are a non- issue. It doesn’t make sense.

  107. ron says:

    Toyota is based in Tokyo Japan and Chrysler has been based in Michigan since 1928.Toyota takes billions of dollars of profit out of the US and the workers here only get a small fraction of it.Chrysler helped build the USA, and has our interest at heart.Toyota is a relative newcomer and kind of became a copycat of the American companies.Today GM ,Ford ,and Chrysler strongly support the US military,the foreign companies do not! GM,Ford and Chrysler helped the US to prevail in WW2 ,the foreign companies did not.

  108. ron says:

    The Toyota Tundra company seemed to have a lack of regard for Americas big 3 full size truck companies.T he foreign company Toyota makes billions of dollars from their US market but they just had to get into the full size truck market and appear to, on purpose, hurt the American companies who are already hurting !

  109. ron says:

    Ford 150 ,Chevy Silverado and Dodge Ram are made by American based manufacturers and they are the best on the market.All three are in the top ten in vehicle sales in the US, way to go USA!

  110. Mickey says:

    Ron where have you been the last year????? Toyota topped GM in the most sales last year. I for one can tell you why Toyota makes a full size truck. We the people of the US demand a better product and since the Big 3 can’t do the job Toyota stepped in. Why the market went south for the Big 3 in Trucks is because the American people are getting tired of mediocre vehicles from the so called Local Manufacturers. Have you noticed where your vehicles are being made and their parts? Where they are assembled at? Apparently you need to read a little more about it before you write junk on a forum. DO you know Chrysler is down the tubes and they bought a foreign designed TRUCK el NISSAN TITAN? Did you know Chrysler was owned by the Germans???? Hence Diamler/Chrylser!!!! Copycat???? Who made the first HYBRID????????? Sure not your big 3. Ron you lost all creditability with the military part and WWII. We know who gets the fleet sales. In another words the govt bails out the big 3 by buying their leftovers.

  111. ron says:


  112. ron says:


  113. ron says:


  114. ron says:

    It is a historic fact GM and Ford used their factories to build military aircraft and military hardware to help the US prevail.Thanks to their efforts we have our freedoms today and there are many who critisize them today about how bad they are .Actually they are making great improvements in the product line. Refer to the reports of JD Powers ,Edmunds and Motor Trend magazine to find the ratings of US vehicles greatly improved!

  115. ron says:

    correction hybrid technology was developed by a bicycle company in the 1800s

  116. ICUH8N says:

    Toyota has what, 10 plants here? Over half their vehicles are still imported. Chrysler has 25+ plants here, Ford 25+, GM 40+. Each one has 3-4 plants in Canada, same with Mexico. The Mexican plants build vehicles mostly for Mexico, Central America, and South America… My point is, you guys GREATLY exagerrate how American and unamerican each company is. Before you guys jump on me, yes the Tundra is built here, I’m not disputing that.

  117. ICUH8N is correct. Toyota has fewer plants and isn’t as much of an “American” company as Dodge, GM, or Ford.
    Somehow, the point of this article has been lost. The idea here, folks, is that the Tundra technically has more domestic content than the Ram, hence challenging the notion that the Ram is “more American.” While everyone is rushing to defend Dodge and accuse Toyota of ruining the USA auto industry (btw, seriously? Toyota is the problem?), no one can dispute this simple fact: The Tundra has more parts made in the USA than the Ram. You can try and twist it anyway you want, but the fact remains that buying a Tundra might not be nearly as bad for the US economy as everyone says it is…just look at the “domestic content” sticker.

  118. ron says:

    Dodge Ram is based in the US and Toyota is based in Tokyo. Dodge has supported the US economy for decades,Tundra has been around about three years and sends its profits out of the country.

  119. ron says:

    Dodge Ram is definitely built by an American company and Toyota Tundra by a Japanese company.As with any company the lions share of the profits go to the main investors.The main investors for Toyota are in Japan,which are very powerful banks,the government and industry.Therefore, it would stand to reason that they recive the huge profits from Tundra. Dodge Ram is made by a US based company and most of their profits go to Auburn Hills,Michigan.

  120. Mickey says:

    Ron go ahead and pay for the 2nd bailout to your beloved Dodge. Not to mention your beloved GM. Now as for Ford F-150 it holds it’s own plus most of ford by keeping it above water. Without the truck sales Ford would be gone. Ron list all numbers you want. Toyota outsold all manufacturers last year. You can’t dispute that. It’s a known fact. Until thius year ends we will see if Malibu out sells the Camry and if GM can out sell Toyota. As far as using Chrylser ICUH8N, GM is about to own them. Now GM lost Saturn, Pontiac, and I think the other was either Land Rover or Volvo. So your plants are dwindling. Same for you Ron that GM can’t rely on those sales to top Toyota.

  121. ICUH8N says:

    I guess I should buy a Toyota to help speed up the “dwindling” of the plants.

  122. Ron – I get tired of answering these same old arguments…large corporations (like Toyota) are owned by shareholders, and their profits are distributed to whoever owns the shares. Lots of Americans own shares in Toyota. Toyota, incidentally, has been building cars in the USA for more than 20 years, and unlike Chrysler, they’ve been increasing the number of plants they have here in that time.
    I also sincerely doubt that the Tundra generates “huge” profits for Toyota (I would guess and say they’re losing money on the truck), but what the hell is your point? So what if they do make money – is that bad? If it’s bad to be in business and make money Ron, then lock me up and throw away the key. Incidentally, Chrysler hasn’t earned a penny in profit in years, so comparing “where profits go” isn’t really useful, is it?
    Still, Ron, the point is this. When you look at the content sticker on a Ram and the content sticker on a Tundra, more of the Tundra is made in the USA. Whatever you want to say, whatever you think you know, there’s no getting around that fact. Toyota buys more Tundra parts from US suppliers than Dodge does, and Toyota assembles the truck in Texas. While I agree completely that the Chrysler Corporation has a larger American presence than Toyota, I will never agree that buying a Tundra is worse for the economy than buying a Ram. The sticker on the window indicates otherwise (pretty clearly I might add).

  123. ron says:

    GM has been number one in sales in the US since the 1920s! And in February 2009,GM sold 128000 vehicles in the US, that was more than any maufacturer,check the data.2008 was a bad year for all vehicle manufactuers in the US market ,Honda,and Toyota,lost huge market share as well as all others.Even though it was a bad year for all , GM sold almost 3 million vehices in the US,that was more than any manufacturer.Honda and Toyota are also having huge layoffs and their business is way off right now.Unlike here, their government,banks,and industry in Japan support them when their doing good or not so good.Please pray for the American companies because they are the underdog,the news media is against them,there is an anti American and anti union sentiment out there.Even though their quality numbers are way up that sentiment is still there.

  124. ron says:

    correction, gm sold 128000 vehicles in the us in jan 2009

  125. ron says:

    The Toyota Tundra actually harmed the US economy and here is what happened.When Toyota officials decided to get in the full size truck market they knew that the big three in Detroit had made full sized pickup trucks, and farmer,ranchers and construction workers had been customers for decades.At the same time they also knew Detroit was hurting and Toyota was already making huge profits from the US.They copied the F150, Silverado ,Dodge Ram and started making it in Texas.Then what haappened? In 2007 Tundra sold almost 200,000 trucks that under normal times would have been made in Michigan.The point is Texas may have been helped and Michigan was hurt.OOUCH!

  126. ron says:

    To Toyotas credit they got into quality before most others and they have the backing of powerful Japanese banks ,government, and industry.They came to the US and started taking market share.It is no longer the US economy rather the so called global economy which is bitter sweet!OOUCH!

  127. Anonymous says:

    Hey Ron and others,
    Just so you know why it is futile to try to spread the truth about domestic autos, just a little quote from the company that runs this site…..

    Spork Marketing is a results-oriented internet marketing firm based in Denver, Colorado. We believe in simple marketing techniques and efficient advertising mediums, and we’re highly effective marketers for our clients.

    And yet somehow their not affiliated with Toyota……..

  128. Mickey says:

    Ron I hope you don’t believe the B/S you’re pushing. The news media? You’re reaching so far out there. Cpoied the F-150????? Do you have the proof about the most vehicles sold last year Ron? It was put out last year by the media when Toyota out sold them. Ron your point is way the hell out there about Toyota. To blame Toyota for America’s downfall is very ludicrous. Think of where your electronics and kids toys these days. Think of who comes across the border and build the American dream the HOUSE. Look at the ones who do sheet rock, painting etc. on the American Dream. The downfall is from your own fellow Americans because of greed.

  129. Ron – The idea that Toyota hurt the economy is ridiculous – it takes two to tango. If Toyota sold 200,000 trucks in the USA, 200,000 people living in the USA bought em’. Why did they buy them? Because that’s what they wanted. Are you saying that people shouldn’t be allowed to buy what they want?

  130. Anonymous Gotcha – I wish that Toyota was paying me and the other guys to run this site…I really do. Feel free to visit to learn all about me and who I am. Of course, you can also look at my TundraNetwork profile and find out just as much.
    For the record, Toyota has never paid me a dime. If that changes, I’ll be sure to make an official announcement. This site is completely independent…I just like the Tundra so I made the site with some help from some friends. Sue me.

  131. nameless says:

    Toyota debated whether to get into the full size truck business because they knew American farmers ,ranchers,and construction workers have purchased the Detroit truck brands for decades and those groups have appreciated good service from them.When Tundra got into the business it automatically hurt lots of people in Michigan ,who lost their jobs because of it.This is a pro Tundra site ,I am sorry if I stepped on any toes foreign or domestic.Today the American car and truck companies are the underdog and if one stands up for them, they are immediately hit with profanity and all kinds of insults.Dodge Ram is making improvements and is a good company and so is Toyota but one is American based and the other is based in the Pacific Rim.God bless one and all ,please turn to Christianity for it is the right way to live!

  132. nameless says:

    Toyota Tundra and Dodge Ram are built by good companies.It is insulting to say Tundra is more American than Ram.If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck,walks like a duck,quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck.Hence, the good company Toyota was organized in Japan,financed by banks in Japan,supervized by folks in Japan and controlled by folks in Japan,then it stands to reason Tundra is from Japan!

  133. nameless says:

    When Tundra decided to build in Texas it really hurt Michigan and they are already hurting.The big three have always done excellant in the full size truck market and they have been the leader for decades in the US.Tundras decision to build in Texas caused lots of people in Michigan to loose their jobs and hurt their families because Toytota did not consider that aspect of it.The global economy bites in the rear and lots of people get hurt,especially our friends in Michigan.

  134. anonymous says:

    Dodge Ram is an improvement in Dodge pickups.From 1920 to 1980 Dodge pickups were smaller in size.I n 1981 the Ram came on the scene. It is plain to see Japans Tundra copied off Americas big three trucks.

  135. Dodge supporter says:

    Dodge Ram won Motor Trend truck of the year for 1994 and 2003.Way to go USA!

  136. Mickey says:

    Nameless now we know why you keep your name out. It should be clueless. If you want your fence put up then by god do it. Surround your big 3 and see how long it will survive. Let’s start with the easiest things we can discuss. Why is it that GM is failing? We sold more vehicles than anyone else for many years and yet we are in financial trouble. Why is that? IF you Nameless actually believe Toyota caused this by coming into the truck market than you’re a bigger idiot than you give yourself credit for. First of all Nameless wasn’t Dodge/Chrysler owned by a german company Diamler? Nameless the aluminum block engine is a copy of your trucks? The 6 speed tranny is a copy of yours? Yes this is a Tundra Forum just like you have your big 3 forums. You go there and you will hear the same B/S you claim here. So what you’re telling fellow Americans they shouldn’t spend their hard earned money on something that’s not American. Quality/Reliability doesn’t mean anything. So if I like Wrangler jeans I guess I can’t buy them. That’s right clueless that American Icon isn’t made in America. Nameless your just another troll that discriminates against Toyota period. Not to mention you’re a hyprocrit. You know what things you have in your household were made in Korea, China, Tiawan, India etc. So before you talk about the demise of America go look at that mirror in your bathroom and you found the guilty American. Apparently you have a bigger problem than to come here on a Tundra forum just to cut down the Toyota.

  137. NAMELESS says:


  138. Nameless says:

    Dodge Ram is a great company and to say it is less American than a foreign based competitor, is cutting down Dodge.Some Americans continually bash Detroits companies and like all of us they have made some major mistakes.All three have also made great improvements in their cars and trucks. If there is anythig the three should change,perhaps the three Michigan based companies should should get rid of that 800 pound guerilla called the UAW, and to Tundra and Nissans credit they do not have that.

  139. Nameless – Thank you for commenting.

  140. Nameless says:

    Some of us are from the baby boom generation remember when Ford ,GM,and Chrysler/ Dodge trucks and cars held about 90 per cent of the US market.The other 10 per cent consisted of imported brands likeVW and Volvo.We were the last generation to experience living in a what was primarily the US economy.It is hard for us, from that generation, to accept this so called global economy.In the 1970s Congress forced pollution control mandates on car /truck manufactures and the vehicles started to run worse.In addition some manuafacturers were making cast aluminum engines.At that time, the big three were routinely making 500, 000 cars per brand like Chevy and Pontiac.It can be said, the big three experienced harsh government regulations,they were mass producing a huge amount of vehicles and GM was making cast aluminum engines on some models.When companies are undergoing circumstances like that , a few sour apples are going to come out!While all that was going on with Detroits big three,Germany,Japan and South Korea came to our shores.They sent lots of small fuel efficient cars and trucks and there were also some sour apples in that bunch and there was some good ones too.The US car and truck market was now being divided up by many manufacturers ,foreign and domestic.

  141. Nameless – Your recollection of history omits several key facts, but I doubt pointing them out will benefit either of us.

  142. Nameless says:

    Some of us are from the baby boomer generation and we can remember when Ford ,GM and Chrysler cars and trucks held 90 percent of the US market and a lot of the vehicles ran just fine.The other 10 percent consisted of imports like Volvo and VW.We were the last generation to experience what was primarily the US economy.Then Japan,South Korea,and Germany started sending their small fuel efficent vehicles to the US in the 70s.A lot of them were probably good along with a few sour apples in the bunch!At that time the big three routinely made 500,000 vehicles per brand like Chevy and Pontiac.Then strict government regulations were put on them for pollution control.The big 3 started to falter a bit because a very high production volume and government regulations.Today the big 3 have great reliability and quality ratings,refer to JD Powers,and Motor trend magazine.As far as Dodge Ram versus Tundra both have had mechanical problems and the majority of trucks are just fine.Dodge Ram is based in Auburn Hills Michigan and Toyota is based in Tokyo Japan.

  143. Mickey says:

    Nameless your song is up. First of all that government regulation applies to all manufacturers that make or bring vehicles in this country. So your big 3 had troubles with smog pollution. Honda, Toyota etc all had to abide by those same regulations so give up the hard story you’re putting out. I don’t feel sorry for your big 3. Isn’t this Dodge’s second bail out? How many times do we have to play this game till your big 3 get it right? Now to the original thread stating the Tundra is more Amewrican made than the Ram. I know we can’t see or want to see those stickers above showing you where your parts are coming from. Bias as you are then we know your vision isn’t 20/20.

  144. Dodge supporter says:

    The big three have made great improvements as verified by Motor Trend magazine,Edmunds,and Consumer Reports.In life most people get second chances,but with Americas big three,they are the target of insults,profanity,negative bias and the deck is stacked against them.On the other hand, outside companies like Toyota are praised by the news media and the deck is stacked in their favor.Tundra has had some mechanical problems and so has Ram.Some Toyota vehicles have had some serious problems, like broken timing chains,serpantine belt failure and sludge engines that seize up.The big three have also had some problems but when the news media gets a hold of it they get slammed.

  145. Tony says:

    Dodge supporter,
    That doesn’t matter to these bone heads. They can only praise Toyota, just like the media. So as you can see, the sheeple that run this site have no credibility. They are narrow minded fools, and not worth the time to bother with.

  146. Mickey says:

    First of all Dodge supporter look at your mag C/R. Not being Biased right? Didn’t even test the Chevy 4×4 and gave it the best recommendations. Now how is it the bias testing you don’t see? I understand you’re support in what you believe is the best thing. We have the same belief but in a different manufacturer. Now answer me this that if I go to a Dodge forum they wouldn’t be bias on the Ram? Have you seen the slamming on here for the Tundra? Also for you Tony the easy thing to tell you is go fly a kite and don’t let the door hit you in the …… We do consider the source and you have no legs to stand on. When you call someone bone head don’t look in the mirror. You just might see what you’re talking about.

  147. Tony says:

    Mickey, once again you have the logic of a 5 year old. Why don’t you just say ” i’m rubber, you glue… know the rest simpleton.

  148. Mickey says:

    Tony who’s the fool? The one who leads or the one who follows? You keep coming back here with your wonderful sayings and couldn’t be more wrong. You don’t like the facts so get over it.

  149. Anonymous says:

    Mickey anyone who reads your posts knows them not to be Facts, but opinions. I can also assure you I am no follower.

  150. Anonymous says:

    Ooops, sorry thought that comment was to me.

  151. Mickey says:

    Just the same anonymous. I don’t hide my name.

  152. Tony says:

    Couldn’t of said it better anon, and I don’t hide mine either Mickey.

  153. Tony says:

    Lets see now, Toyota, who will be posting its first loss in 70 years is now in talks with Japanese government-backed banks on possible lending.

    70 years of profits, and they didn’t plan for downturns. You talk about the American auto companies who have lost Billions over the last few years and are just now asking for help. No UAW to deal with and their still losing money? How can that be?

    This is exactly why Mickey’s comments are useless and void of any facts…..

  154. Dodge Supporter – I would say that lately (the last 15 years or so) the Big Three have suffered a lot of negative publicity, some of it undeserved. I think that it pails in comparison to the negative things that people said about Toyota back in the 1960’s, but so be it. Toyota has certainly had some problems, and I would agree that they seem to get the benefit of the doubt quite a bit. HOWEVER, Toyota never made as many bad vehicles as the Big Three did back in the 70’s and 80’s. I know lots of people that will NEVER buy another domestic again because their 78 Nova needed new brakes every 10k miles (or something or other). I think that the domestic manufacturers have a lot of negative publicity pent up from years of bad products. Toyota might have made one or two bad cars in the last 50 years, but Detroit made bad cars for more than a decade. Which one of these companies will get the benefit of the doubt when something goes wrong?

  155. Tony – What, may I ask, is your point? Because Toyota is losing money, that somehow proves that the UAW is not the problem in the US auto industry? You claimed on Jan. 25th that back in 2007 the UAW “eliminated the compensation gap between domestic and foreign automakers in the U.S.” Why then did Ford and the UAW just agree to “freeze wages and cut cash bonuses?” Still claiming that the UAW isn’t overcompensated, or are you ready to admit that you were wrong?

  156. Tony says:

    It’s called payback and it’s not just the UAW, it is also salary. When the companies were making money hand over fist, it was hard to justify not giving raises and bonuses. Now that the economy is in the tank, they figure they would jump on board and see what they could get back. The word bonus is an incorrect term though, they were negotiated payments in leiu of raises during the 5 year contract. You can spin things anyway you want to but the only US automaker that isnt taking a loan, is trying to set the stage for the other negotiations. The reason it will pass is not because they are over compensated, but because they are scared to lose their jobs.

    I dont know how many times I have to say this, people with jobs that make minimum wages, are not going to support the “services” industry, and they are not going to buy cars, homes, or other big ticket items either.

    And for those of you that always spout off about where our tv, dvd player, or any other electronic device we may own was made, remember, they used to be made here until the asians priced those jobs out of this country also.
    What happened to the textile industry, oh yeah, the same thing.

    So the point that I have been trying to get through to you is, if you dilute the earnings base by trying to get rid of the good paying jobs, then you are doing more harm than you know. Look at the economy now.

    My other point was…This company who has made money for 70 YEARS has one bad year and is already asking for money? Seemed like a pretty simple point. I guess some people need charts and pictures……

  157. Tony says:

    Jason about your statement to Dodge Supporter.
    Your reasoning with your one example of the brakes is a perfect example of how people get skewed views. Brakes were made out of asbestos back then, at least most of them and wore down quickly on all cars. The metallic versions of brake pads last alot longer, but tear up the rotors to the point of having to replace them when you change the brakes.

    Now… your comparing one company against three. The three made alot more vehicles then Toyota did. So just by the number of vehicles alone there will be more problems.

    One final note, can someone tell me what classic cars Toyota made. I couldnt find one.

  158. Mickey says:

    Tony you forgot that the big 3 had a bad quarter and asked for a bailout or we will close were the remarks. Oh if you wanted the american made one why didn’t you buy it to keep them going? Free interprise is what it’s called Tony. If you haven’t notice Tony it isn’t just the minimum wage people not buying automobiles. Tony you failed again. Buying automobiles? What about parts that go to the automobiles? Used Cars also? I’m sure you majored in economics and can tell us why the lower income people won’t buy a car. You are badly mistaken. They won’t buy the expensive brand but will buy the base model or foreign brands who sell cars cheaper. Tony how about those “K” cars Dodge made? You have one? Classic cars would fall under a vehicle made 20 years ago. First one I can think of is the Supra. The Corolla fit’s that criteria. Started in 1974 as a SR-5 and is still being made. I personally had a 74 Corona SR-5 (ESP) which was the sister to the Corolla. I bought the car in 76. Now on here you here from your side Tony that Toyota copied the Big 3. Well for a very cheap car can you tell me what big 3 vehicle can do what the Corona did? Besides having all guages and a tach did any big 3 vehicle under $5,000 had a sensor panel that let you know when any fluid was low? Meaning battery, radiator and overflow, brake fluid, power steering fluid and washer fluid? Did any big 3 car have a sensor to let you know when your headlights, tail lights, and brake lights were out? Did any big 3 cars have a sensor to let you know when your brake pads needed to be replaced? I can tell you Tony the word is simple “NO” is it. Now that’s classic. A simple 1800cc engine with a 5speed tranny. I know what you’re going to ask Tony so I will answer it first. After 2 years I fell victim to the pressure of my friends and family for being the only one with a foreign vehicle with the group I was with and traded it in for a Dodge which lasted 9 months and spun a bearing before getting into a chevy. Yes I was dumb for letting it go and now I came back not worried what any of you people have to say. I tried the rest and now I’m back with the best. That’s why you and the rest like you can’t stand it because in less than 8 years Toyota came in the full size truck market and kick you 3 in the rears and it leaves a sour taste in your mouth. I won’t say anything against what vehicle you own Tony. That’s your choice… But don’t come here and try to make us feel guilty for buying a Toyota. That’s my choice. It’s called freedom of choice Tony learn to live with it. I tried your brand for the past 30 years now I moved on.

  159. Mickey says:

    Forgot Tony you will like this one….http://forums.superstreetonlin.....index.html

  160. Tony says:

    Really Mickey, the Tundra outsold the Big 3 in truck sales? Please show me that info.
    The Big three had gauges that were important. They also had idiot lights as they’re called for the rest of you. People with half a brain knew that when their brakes made noise, it was time to change them. Matter of fact I had a AMC hornet that had most of those and that was definitely a cheap car.

    One last thing, it took you almost 8 hours to find a link to a so called classic that was posted on 09/11/07 and had absolutely no responses to it. Once again Mickey, your just full of useless information….

  161. Tony says:

    One other thing I also forgot to mention. Learn how to type complete sentences.

    I did buy American whenever I could and still do. I bought the last model of TV made in the US, it was a Zenith. I may not be an economics major, but I do know that it is called free Enterprise, not Interprise. Keep up the good work trying to make Me look dumb. Think its backfiring on you………

  162. Tony – I think you raise some interesting points. Your assertion that “if you dilute the earnings base by trying to get rid of the good paying jobs, then you are doing more harm than you know” really IS the million dollar question. Just as you say, the textile and electronics industries both left the USA never to return. Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that those companies failed to reinvest in their US operations in order to increase automation, improve quality and efficiency, and reduce costs. Had Zenith (for example, and I don’t claim to know much about them) spent more money on making their US factories better, they might still HAVE US factories. I also believe that part of the reason so many companies left the USA was that emissions and environmental regulations (which are necessary and good) made it more expensive to do business in the USA than doing business in Asia, Central America, etc. I also think that poor union leadership (and poor company executives) deserve some blame as well. Union leaders are under pressure to bring their workers raises every year, and the sometimes negotiate contracts that are poisonous to their employers. Executives are under pressure to bring stockholders increased share price and dividends every year, and they often make terrible choices based on this quarter when they should be thinking 5-10 years down the road. I honestly believe that the US stock market is too volatile – that our constant emphasis on buying and selling stocks quickly is hurting all of our industries.
    I’ll also agree that Ford (and everyone else) is using the current economic crisis to leverage concessions from the UAW. I’m not willing to concede that all UAW employees are compensated equally when compared to all non-UAW employees, if for no other reason than the fact that the UAW introduced a two-tier salary structure. If all the NEW employees earn less than all the OLD employees, then by definition the old employees are over-compensated. I realize that might seem simplistic, but the fact is GM, Ford, and Chrysler can hire people to do the same job for less than their current older UAW employees. There’s really no getting around that basic fact.
    Finally, as to your point about brakes, you’re 100% correct about asbestos. My point is that many people have had some bad experience or other with some old domestic product (I used brakes as an example) and that’s why they’re not willing to buy another GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc. I think that quality is part of the issue. You say that simply because the domestics made MORE cars, they had more problems. That wouldn’t explain the poor JD Power reliability rankings for the 80’s and early 90’s – they’re adjusted per 100 vehicles. HOWEVER, I will say that dealerships are also partly to blame for the fact that many Americans have vowed never to buy another domestic. I think we can all agree that the typical auto dealership in the 80’s was an awful and sometimes criminally negligent environment. I would guess that many people will never buy another domestic again because they had a bad experience with a dealer.
    Corolla, Supra, Cressida, FJ…

  163. Mickey says:

    No one said Tony that Toyota Tundra beat the others in truck sales. Toyot itself outsold the rest last year. As for spelling I never said I was a major in it. As far as the website I didn’t have an issue with it and found it farely fast. As far as your idiot lights guy your big 3 didn’t have them for a battery much less washer fluid etc. As far as the brakes you really know how to win people over. Let me explain Tony, when you hear noises on the brakes the damage is already done… Now for sure you have to turn your rotors if the aren’t damaged too far for running metal on metal. Now for the Corona had a a sensor that would light up well before metal on metal to avoid costly repairs. Now you can call them idiot lights but that’s fine I never had to replaced or turn the rotors thank you very much. Nothing on classic? Still haven’t found one?

  164. Tony says:

    You also made some valid points. I am not sure about the electronic factories either, but one thing is for sure the environmental issues do effect manufacturing. So we as Americans basically say its fine to polute their air as long as we can pay less for something we want to buy cheap. Lest we forget that air is the same air that we will one day be breathing.

    This is also one of my points, that the foreign companies do not have to worry about those issues. They do not have to provide safety gear for their employees like the american companies do. Isn’t that in itself a major disadvantage? If they can make any product cheaper just by their paybase and over abundance of workers, what are we going to have left? The United States cannot survive being a service industry, that is pretty much rearing its ugly head now. I guess that is one of the reasons that the auto industry is such a major issue with me. I can fix just about anything so I pray that I will be able to find other employment should the need arise (fixed my broken DLP TV this weekend).

    I am not saying that Toyota does not build good cars and trucks, what I am saying is that if people dont buy domestics, this country is really going to be hurting.

  165. Tony says:

    Wrong again, my cars which were all in the 70’s did too have battery lights or a gage. If you read any of your owners manuals you would have read that you should check your fluids usually when you do an oil change. That is what is called regular maintenence. As far as the brakes went, most of them had a little piece of metal on them called a wear sensor, which when it rubbed on the rotor made a high pitched squealing noise. They also did not damage the rotors as long as you changed them when you heard the noise. I know because I have ALWAYS done my own maintenence.

    As far as the Classics go, even if you can show me 3, I can come up with a whole page of domestics that will outsell and/or have higher values. Apparently it takes more than a sensor or gage to make a vehicle a classic, looks,horsepower,good old fashioned American Pride must also come into play….

  166. Tony says:

    Mickey about your comment that nobody said Tundra outsold the Americans……I quote from your post….


  167. Mickey says:

    Did that comment state outsold? You’re the only one that “ASSUMED” that was outsold. The only thing Toyota beat everyone in last year was total sales knocking off GM. Quality my friend quality…

  168. Tony says:

    Are you sure your not a politician? You just said it again, they beat them in total sales,aren’t those numbers including their home market? What are the numbers for North America alone? Sounds to me that they are more loyal to their own than Americans are.

  169. Mickey says:

    Tony okay I give what is GM total sales include?

  170. Tony says:

    I’ll slow down for you Mickey,

    Did that help?

  171. Mickey says:

    I ….Asked……Total…..Sales…… Of…… GM…. Not Toyota. It doesn’t matter your brand lost in sales period. The lost is so bad they may not come out of this crisis…. Slow enough…….

  172. Tony says:

    First off, GM is not my brand.
    Secondly the whole point was that their home market is more loyal.
    When you argue with someone you can’t just ask the same question over and over again, you have to make other valid points……

    Try again…..

  173. Tony – I think that Japanese people are more likely to buy Japanese cars from Isuzu, Nissan, Suzuki, Mazda, Subaru, Honda, and Toyota (and whoever else i forgot) because they all offer super small cars that sip gas. Ford, GM, and Chrysler don’t have the product to be competitive on an island where gasoline costs $4-$5 per gallon and parking space is at a premium. I think that there’s no way to test the loyalty of the Japanese consumer until a non-Japanese company offers a similar product.
    I also believe that American classics (especially muscle cars) are amazing, wonderful machines and I would love to have one. The products of the domestics in the 60’s were world class, and their popularity today is a result of their excellent quality. Unfortunately, the value and popularity of classic cars isn’t indicative of quality or value today.
    Finally, in regards to your point that a lack of a manufacturing base will lead to the decline of the USA, I can only shrug my shoulders. It may be – I don’t know. However, I think it’s fair to point out that supposedly “American” manufacturers (like Dodge) are producing significant percentages of their vehicles outside the USA. It may be true that buying products made outside the USA is bad for our economy, but I have to ask: Why is it OK to buy a Ram with more than 25% of the parts made outside the USA when the Tundra has more US components? I realize that some of the revenues go “back to Japan”, but none of us knows how much…we’re only guessing. Toyota built a $250 million plant in San Antonio, and I strongly doubt they’ve recovered their investment yet. Doesn’t that mean that buying a Tundra is a net positive – at least until that plant is paid off? What about the workers that weren’t laid off by Toyota during the production freeze last year? Toyota lost money on that deal – doesn’t that justify a few Tundra purchases? etc. etc. We’ll probably have to agree to disagree, but I can’t understand how people can claim buying a Tundra is bad for America when the damn thing is made here.

  174. Tony says:

    While it may be true about the part content, the fact of the matter is that ALL profits go back to Japan, just as all profits from GM and Ford plants in Europe come back here. IF they decide to re-invest them here then that is something completely different. Toyota also received $133 Million dollars in incentives to open that factory. Sounds like an unfair advantage to me. Have any of the domestics received this kind of support?


  175. Tony – Obviously, not all profits go back to Japan. Some of the profits went to San Antonio so a plant could be built. While it’s true that Toyota received some tax incentives, they’re still about 100 million in the hole (give or take). Perhaps if the Tundra was selling 250k+ units a year, Toyota would earn back their expenses quickly and at some point all those profits would be going back to Japan (and not being used to pay off the plant).
    As for the incentives…
    Ford gets up to $180 million: http://louisville.bizjournals......ily31.html
    GM gets $98 million:
    Chrysler gets $115 million:
    This is a normal practice. All kinds of businesses enjoy tax incentives when they choose to open a new facility. I’m not sure if it’s good or not, but different states compete against each other for big plants like this and they use tax dollars to entice. In some cities and states, you’ll even see tax incentives for new shopping malls.

  176. Dodge supporter says:

    Toyota is based in Japan and Dodge Ram is based in the USA.Dodge has put billions into the US economy for decades and Tundra is a foreign transplant company, that is also a copycat.It is an insult to say that Dodge is not American,and Tundra is.Tundra originated in Japan, it is managed by Japan and millions of dollars in profits go to Japan.If it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck,walks like a duck ,then it is a duck!Ram is an original American company and Tundra is not.

  177. Mickey says:

    Way to go Dodge supporter. You need to go buy one before they go down. Support them because they need you. Now if you look at where the parts come from you would realize exactly what’s being said here. Your truck made in Mexico? Does that ring a bell? BTW only 3% of the sales goes back to Toyota Japan. So when I bought mine a total of $1,200 went to Japan. Have you ever pay for a label? Look up everything you’re buying and see where it came from. Now you get the picture.

  178. Concerned about America says:

    Perhaps the US should follow Japans protection policies.European and American companies are basically locked out from their auto market while at the same time Tundra, and all the other Japanese companies get to compete here.A few American and European vehicles are sold in Japan,but they make sure Honda and Toyota gets little or no foreign competition.Yes, Toyota should be allowed to sell their vehicles here,but in all fairness ,the land of the Rising Sun should open their markets to us. The big three pickup manufactures have made great improvements on their vehicles,and Tundra will have to settle for fourth or fifth place in sales because F150 Silverado ,and Ram are preferred by most Farmers,Ranchers,and Construction workers.The big three helped build the US, and Tundra is the new kid on the block that is allowed to compete in this country but we can not compete in their country?

  179. Concerned about America says:

    It is hard understanding that Tundra supporters call it American because it has some American parts in it. I thought they were based in Tokyo,Japan?Those same people trash American vehicle manufacturers all the time and say how terrible they supposedly are and at the same time praise Tundra which has American parts that they continually bash???

  180. Concerned about America says:

    2008 FULL SIZE PICKUP SALES FIGURES American based companies F150 515,513 Chev 465,065 Dodge Ram 245,840 GMC 168,544.Japanese based companies Tundra 137,544 Nissan 34,033. I t looks liked the American trucks are preferred!

  181. Concerned about America – Have you read any of the comments ahead of your own? Others have made these points already. For the record, I’ve never trashed an American manufacturer or product. Ford, Dodge, and GM all make fine trucks. I simply prefer the Tundra. As for your contentions about the Tundra’s lineage, please see the multitude of comments. As for sales figures, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Sales figures and desirability have nothing to do with each other. Good sales figures are indicative of discounts, brand momentum, political preference, etc. Take the Camry – the automotive press likes the Ford Fusion over the Camry, and I would certainly agree that the Fusion is the equal of the Camry, yet the Camry outsells the Fusion 2 or 3 to 1. Does that mean the Camry is better? Not in my eyes.

  182. Mickey says:

    Concerned…… Have you noticed in japan there’s no room or the streets are very small and how much petro is? The Big 3 wouldn’t survive there because no one will want a vehicle that doesn’t sip the gas. Also it has to be a small vehicle at that. Also Concerned no matter what you say or do will get me back to buying a Big 3 again. No one likes to be accused by a factory rep of pulling down a headliner in a $36,000 truck knowingly by him and myself it was admitted defect. It was sad to see after 2 weeks of ownership that the headliner was down on all four doors on my ext cab. If it wasn’t for the sunroof holding it up it would have fell all the way. Now for workmanship I went to 3 other GM dealerships in my area just to see they were selling these defects as brand new. Nothing like 4 trucks out of 10 having this issue brand new. If you want to blame someone then blame that dealership. Don’t try to lay that guilt trip here it won’t wash. As far as American parts it falls down to quality my friend….

  183. Concerned about America says:

    2009 Ford F150 North American Truck of the year.2009Chevy Silverado highest in initial quality by JD Powers.Ford vehicles rated number one in safety for 2009.2008 Chevy Malibu,North American car of the year.2008 Cadillac CTS Motor Trend car of the year.2007 Saturn Aura,North American car of the year.Dodge Ram has also won awards.It looks like the 3 Michigan companies are going in the right direction.It also looks like long term reliabilty ratings are also up for the 3 ,refer to JD Powers and Motor Trend magazine.3 cheers!

  184. concerned about America. says:

    For over one hundred years American farmers,ranchers and construction workers have been buying pickups from the Detroit,Michigan big three.A lot of those buyers are conservative and support God,country,patriotism,Mom,apple pie,baseball,homemade ice cream, and domestic pickup companies.Whereas,some Tundra buyers may have some of those same values,perhaps a large chunk of their purchase price for a Tundra goes to Tokyo and the Land of the Rising Sun- go figure! By the way ,the big three are responsible for giving the priviledge to international vehicle companies to operate in the US,heres how.In 1942,1943,1944,and 1945,tens of thousands of American men and women went to work for GM,Ford,and Chrysler.They made tanks,aircraft,trucks and military material.It was exactly what our guys needed to help prevail in the war.Their efforts helped prevent Germany and Japan from destroying the US.Now today, for whatever reason, people get to buy Tundra, and thanks to those heroic factory workers of sixty four years ago,those Tundra clients have that priviledge.Germany and Japan are friends today but they need to open their markets!

  185. concerned about America. says:

    I have tried to point out the good things about the domestic vehicle companies, but I expect ,getting balled out and all kinds of insults because I try to support the domestics,I will turn the other cheek as Jesus taught.He taught to love your neighbor, that is good for all of us.

  186. Mickey says:

    Concerned first you come on here and spread your hate and discontent about your big 3 and now you talk about insults and turn the other cheek? So supporters of Tundra’s aren’t patriotic? Have you read Consumer Reports? Toyota has a few vehicles ranked at the top of their class…Thank You try again. First of all it’s about 3% if that much goes back. They still have to pay for the plants here. How much of your money for the big 3 go to other countries ie. Mexico and Canada? Boy if that ain’t mom’s apple pie I don’t know what is. Are you saying the big 3 runs the government? By your statement the big 3 is responsible for giving the priviledge to international companies to operate in the US. When did they take over the country? Where do you get off putting WWII in this? I did 21 years in the Navy thank you. You better thank them and myself for giving you that priviledge to write that junk you’re writing. Yes your right, Jesus taught us to turn the cheek so you don’t mind if I turn away. I also go by the golden rule too. GM did me wrong so I return the favor. With your 3 statements in what you’re trying to say is we don’t have a right to buy a Tundra because the big 3 says no. It wasn’t till the Tundra came out that the Big 3 and including you are scared of what’s happening. People no longer are forced to buy your inadequate vehicles with plaqued problems. The words in your last paragraph can be true if I placed them this way too. I was here on a Tundra forum and these Big 3 supporters come here to put us down and bash our maker and our beloved Tundra. Now Jesus taught us to turn our cheeks. Dang the shoe fits. Guess what Concerned try again.

  187. Concerned – Thanks for commenting.

  188. concerned about America. says:

    It is a fact that the big three helped save this country from 1942-1945.I am giving facts not hate.Tens of thousands of Americans went to work for GM,Ford,and Chrysler,at their plants, and they helped to build aircraft,tanks,and military material.Our country had its back to the wall and those folks worked round the clock to help America prevail.If they had not done it,America may have been defeated.Like it or not, the big three were a huge part of the WW2 war effort and they should get some respect for it.If anything I have said seemed to critical or hateful,I apologize.A lot of people are so critical of the big three and do not even know, the vital role they had in helping this country prevail and be safe in WW 2.A lot of people constantly tell how the big three made bad vehicles at different times,if they were so terrible why have they been around over a hundred years?As I said earlier, if I say something good about the American based companies,I will be in Dutch!I am a US Air Force veteran and proud of this country.The Tundra and Ram debate will go on and both sides are passionate.

  189. Mickey says:

    They also fought for another thing called FREEDOM. Freedom of choice. Dodge was bailed out once. You tell me how can a manufacturer go from being on top in 2007 and in 2008 need a bailout? People want the most now for the dollar and that’s why they go different avenues in what they can get. It wasn’t till the 07 Tundra came out that we have all this confrontation with the Big 3. Before it wasn’t a concern but now Toyota has came into the game with a full size truck. Like I said earlier I gave Ford then GM a shot at keeping my wife and I as a customer. Both have succeded in pushing me away never to return. When customer service gets that bad then it was time to get real and see the light. Now I have total satisfaction in both Toyota’s we have.

  190. Tony says:

    Mickey it’s simple, corporate greed. They were basically raped and pillaged by Diamler. Now they are owned by a capital management company, which we all know is another blood sucker.

  191. Mickey says:

    I agree with you Tony but I didn’t give Dodge a chance in this and I rather not speak about Dodge till I own one. I had a 73 Charger SE back in 77-78 but traded it in on something else. Had a big block 400 and it was getting me into trouble. So I downsized to a V6 Buick…. Mistake getting the first made V-6’s. Had to be rebuilt 2x. Kept losing oil pressure causing major malfunctions.

  192. Anonymous says:

    Dodge Ram is seen on the highways everywhere one looks.It has great design and its sales numbers have been steady in recent years,somewhere around a quarter million units per year.Ram is based in Auburn Hills Michigan,and has poured multi millions of dollars into the US economy.Tundra is seen in much fewer numbers on the highway and it is based in Tokyo,Japan.Tundra buyers primarily support the Japanese economy because the major components come from there and major investors are located there. Yes, the factory is located in Texas but it is designated as a foreign transplant company.Ram is designated as a domestic company,based in the US. On another point,after the September 11 ,2001 events in New York City,the domestic vehichle companies sent millions of dollars and replacement vehicles to New York ,but where was Tundra,why didnt they help?

  193. Anonymous says:

    Domestic vehicle companies are based in Michigan,not Pacific Rim!

  194. Mickey says:

    Again Anonymous you’re full of it. Where in Mexico your parts come from? You need to find something better to do than come here with the same ole stuff over and over. You’re a broken record and how many times shall we bail out your company? What’s the magic number for you. You want to bail them out feel free to buy your dodge. Apparently not a whole bunch is being sold.

  195. Anonymous – You give domestic owners and Ram fans a bad name. Your “facts” are dubious, and you’ve missed the point.

  196. Anonymous says:

    The global economy has hurt hundreds of thousands of families especially in Michigan.When the foreign vehicle companies came to the US in full force in the 1970s,market share naturally got divided up and lots of people lost their jobs in the domestic companies.Now the US market is comprised of about 36 different car/truck companies and the original three have lots of company.Today Toyota has plants at Georgtown and San Antonio and they are allowed to operate in the US as they please.They were given special tax breaks and incentives to locate there.Some southern US senators are pro foreign companies and anti Michigan based companies for whatever reason.Toyota gets powerful financial backing from Japanese banks,and their government .There is a lot of negative sentiment against Dodge Ram because it happens to be an American based company.The Tundra is praised because it is made in Texas and is not based in Michigan.That is the way things are today.It is a fact, Dodge Ram has certainly done a lot for the US economy and just because it has a fraction less American parts does not matter,most people recognize it as an American company and Toyota a Japanese company!

  197. Mickey says:

    Anonymous apparently only you can win this game. You know Michigan isn’t the only state hurting my friend. So get off Michigan’s back. You know darn well the incentives the big 3 get for operating where there at so don’t come over here with your crap about how Toyota gets away with it. Have you even smell what you’re shoveling. Toyota has more than two plants so keep on with your narrow minded antics. Let’s see why there is so much negative sentiment against Dodge…. Could it be not making a reliable product?? Less we forget the famous “K” car…. Oohhh than can it be the second time we have to bail these guys out??? You have by all means and opportunity to go help those guys out so Michigan can stay on the map. Let’s forget the other states who make parts for your considerable 3. I don’t see you crying over those states. You remember that old addage about the survival of the fittest? Well so let it be written and so let it be done……

  198. I’m thinking about closing comments on this post – nothing new has been contributed. Anyone want me to leave them open?

  199. Mickey says:

    Jason it has became the same-o same-o thing. Constant repeating.

  200. Anonymous says:

    GM and Chrysler are in deep financial trouble right now and 2008 was one of the worst years for all vehicle manufacturers. It is frightening that President OBama is giving orders to GM and Chrysler on how to run their companies.It seems like the unions are one of the biggest problems for those two companies,because unions can strike and cause a ripple affect ,causing many other suppliers to go idle.At that point the union has replaced management and that should not happen.In my opinion unions should get rid of the strike clause or no longer exist.Tundra will not have any American government interference,Tokyo will not allow it.Tundra and Ram have about the same customer ratings in Edmunds,both are excellant pickups.Tundra has an advantage ,they are backed by powerful foreign investors but Ram is part of Chrysler and right now they have negative media attention and negative public sentiment about bailouts.Right now the US economy is on rocky ground,pray that are leaders make the right decisions and that all the vehicle companies foreign and domestic survive and thrive.God bless everyone!

  201. Mickey says:

    By firing the CEO for GM was wrong by me. Telling Chrysler they have to go with Fiat? The govt. has no place in big business. Simply put where’s the CEO for AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Wallstreet and bankers who all took bailout money. You know lets buy a hotel with the bailout money or a corporate jet, or give bonuses. Obama has step to far in this one.

  202. […]   The Toyota Camry is the most american made car in the US acorrding to the research. Toyota Tundra is More American Than Dodge Ram | Tundra Headquarters […]

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