Is Toyota Hiding Safety Problems From Consumers?
Jason Lancaster | Dec 28, 2009 | Comments 30
Our favorite LA Times reporters V&B are at it again – using a string of poorly investigated “facts” and a complete lack of understanding, V&B are alleging that Toyota is purposefully keeping vehicle safety problems secret from their customers (link).
While the LA Times article cites a series of mistakes made by Toyota, it’s hard to prove these were mistakes were the result of a conscious effort. Unfortunately, the interesting and enlightening points made by the LA Times are overshadowed by sloppy journalism and half truths.
First, the interesting points brought up by the LA Times:
1. Toyota’s failure to recall the 03′ Sienna despite knowing about a potential safety problem in 04′. When Toyota discovered a design flaw on the 2003 Sienna, they corrected the problem with a re-designed part in 2004. Unfortunately, they failed to recall and correct the flaw on the 03′ model until confronted by NHTSA earlier this year. Toyota claims the potential safety issue was minor.
2. Toyota recalled the 4Runner in Japan in 2004, but didn’t recall the 4Runner for the same problem in the USA until 05′. In 2004, Toyota decided that the 4Runner’s steering linkage had a potentially dangerous design flaw and recalled the vehicle in Japan. However, despite using the same steering linkage setup, the U.S. version of the 4Runner wasn’t recalled until a year later.
3. In 1994, Toyota failed to recall the Land Cruiser for a fuel tank problem in a timely manner and may have hid evidence from NHTSA. NHTSA fined Toyota $250,000 for their actions, the 2nd largest fine NHTSA had ever issued at that time. Toyota denies hiding evidence, but did acknowledge they were slow to address the problem.
4. Allegations of hiding evidence levied by former Toyota Counsel Dimitrious Biller. As we reported a few months ago, former Toyota employee Dimitrious P. Biller alleges that Toyota hid evidence in rollover lawsuits. Biller’s claims are damning, but they should be weighed with a healthy degree of skepticism. Biller’s lawsuit may be nothing more than a case of sour grapes.
Clearly, there are some issues here that deserve special consideration. While it’s entirely possible these issues can be explained by poor judgment, poor management, and/or a corporation that’s very slow to act (or a combination of all 3) it’s also possible that Toyota hides safety problems as a matter of policy.
Here’s what the journalists behind the article got wrong:
1. The LA Times cites “cash payments” as evidence of guilt. V&B found many examples of Toyota settling lawsuits by offering cash and mandating all parties sign a confidentiality agreement. To read the article in the L.A. Times, one would think settling out of court is evidence of guilt. Yet even the most casual legal observer understands that it’s often cheaper to settle lawsuits out of court than it is to go to trial. The fact that Toyota offered to settle lawsuits alleging defects – and then require a confidentiality agreement as a term of the settlement – is proof of nothing. This is standard corporate legal procedure in the USA.
2. The LA Times cites lemon law buybacks as evidence of guilt. The authors demonstrate their lack of understanding when they allege that Toyota bought back vehicles in order to hide safety problems. While not exactly common, vehicle buybacks aren’t necessarily rare. State lemon laws often require manufacturers to buyback vehicles from consumers once a certain number of complaints have been made. Much like settling lawsuits, it is often cheaper for Toyota to buyback and re-sell a vehicle than it is to go through a costly legal process, especially when “victory” for Toyota results in a very upset customer.
3. The LA Times trots out more unintended acceleration anecdotes as evidence. This is the same practice that we’ve taken issue with before: V&B use rumors and unverified personal accounts to try and “prove” Toyota has an unintended acceleration problem. Unfortunately, reporting rumors and personal accounts as fact is nothing more than smear journalism.
4. The LA Times article hints that, because Toyota blocks access to their event data recorders (a.k.a. “black boxes”), they must be trying to hide something. If blocking access to vehicle data recorders means that Toyota is hiding problems, what does it mean when nearly every other auto manufacturer does the same thing? Only Ford, GM, and Chrysler allow access to their vehicle’s black boxes – does this mean Honda, VW, Mercedes, Subaru, Porsche, and others are hiding evidence? Not likely.
5. The LA Times article relies heavily upon the word of attorneys currently suing Toyota. The article lists multiple quotes from lawyers (and cites documents filed by lawyers) who are currently suing Toyota. Obviously, this evidence should be treated with a high degree of skepticism.
Bottom line: Could Toyota be hiding safety problems from consumers as a matter of policy? We found evidence that Toyota became aware of Tundra frame rust issues in late 2008, yet took no action until news reports began to surface in 2009.
However, rather than blame this oversight on some sort of conspiracy to “hide” safety issues, we’ll blame it on poor management. Huge corporations like Toyota tend to have problems taking action, and most of the evidence uncovered by V&B can be explained by this very common form of corporate paralysis.
Filed Under: Auto News
In regards to #2, I thought Toyota could not re-sell lemon law vehicles. They should not be able to since I had an 07′ RAV4 that had issues with a huge hissing noise related to the brakes that did it all the time and only stopped when pressed on brakes. Toyota related it to the vacuum in the brake booster system hissing and crackling all the time, especially at startup and even while stepping on the gas pedal you could hear the hiss at lower speeds. Well, after taking it in 4 times for the same thing to 2 dealers and test driving 2 other RAV4 V6 engines that did NOT make any noise at all, I made Toyota buy me out because I was sick of hearing that noise. I would hate to think someone else got my very nice, other than hissing noise all the time, RAV4 and would get annoyed eventually that this noise was all the time constant. What would end up happening then since my vehicle was still under warranty if another customer bought it and heard this same noise which they will? A double lawsuit against Toyota? Seems to me they should take these faulty vehicles back to Toyota mfg. and fix what the problem is so as to not have the same issues come up with same vehicle. This is called research and development.
So, the answer is yes, Toyota does hide evidence of faulty vehicles and ONLY until enough customers complain, will Toyota do something about it. For me, I knew there was something wrong and would not stand for it and did it my way, not Toyota’s wait and see if technical service bulletin comes out approach for a solution to my problem since my RAV4 was the only one out of 3 same exact vehicles that made this noise – and Toyota called this normal operation – what a crock of B.S.
mk – It’s standard industry practice to resell lemon-law buybacks. While I obviously can’t speak to your experience, it’s been my experience that the vast majority of vehicles that are bought back as a result of lemon laws have nothing wrong with them. Often times, the vehicles are repaired correctly after the 3rd or 4th attempt. However, since most lemon law statutes require buyback after the 3rd or 4th repair attempt, a lot of buybacks are perfectly fine. It should be noted that most states (if not all) require a used car dealer to disclose if a vehicle they’re selling was a lemon law buyback. This info is also found on a CarFax or AutoCheck report. As for your question about warranty repairs for the same problem, the manufacturer will only resell the vehicle if they believe it will be a sound financial decision. Some buybacks are scrapped and/or shipped overseas where expectations aren’t as high.
Federal Trade Commission has all the info on the Lemon Law along with your state. MK you said it “So, the answer is yes, Toyota does hide evidence of faulty vehicles and ONLY until enough customers complain, will Toyota do something about it”. So is this quality? Jason what do you say? So why did you buy anther MK? Why are they trying to put a gag order on Billing?
Compared the Corolla to Cobalt. No question, although not great itself, the Corolla was the winner in terms of fuel economy, quality, and resale value 2-5 years from now. Tundra over Chevy silverado simply because the engine and tranny are far superior in the Tundra since Chevy went wimpy with a 3.42 rear axle ratio in a 5.3L V8 4 speed tranny and can no longer get a 4.10 gear ratio or even a 3.73 and the crew cab chevy has too short of a bed to be useful for me. Tundra’s double cab is roomier in the back seat also than the chevy extended cab and with 4 doors, not those crappy swing out suicide doors like on the Chevy ext. cab.
Sucks that Toyota can resell my vehicle as used and disclosed as a buyback because the whistling noise thru the dash is not normal and should not be able to piss off another potential customer until fixed from the mfg. I had the entire brake vacuum booster replaced and still not solved the noise problem even though other RAV4 V6 engines did not make that noise at all and same component. Go figure?
I do not condone nor agree with any company intentionally not making potential problems with their products known to the person(s) that have bought them. Yet it happens all the time. I don’t think Toyota is any different from anyone else in this aspect.
All vehicle manufacurers hide QALL defects till forced to confront them. This is akin to admiting to farting mid church service. Everyone does it at some time and NO ONE admits to it at the time. Sad but true.
Jason,
Great article and well written but in term’s on Toyota Hiding safety issues from customers that’s a fact. Toyota has done with me from my old 2000 Tundra brakes that were a Pos on a failed Caliper design in the early first gen Tundra. They tryed to buy me off in the form of making a truck payment and almost seceeded but I stick to principals. Overall wile a Goodwill to a long term repeat customer like myself I still had those same issues again. I mentioned to Toyota early on thank’s for the Goodwill but the problem has came back and you need to figure out these problem’s on your own merit. Toyota addressed it with me and helped me out with the problem but you have to think about the long term effect’s this has on a customer with repeat problem’s. Overall Toyota made it right with me but given the treatment I had to put up with from the service department not fully doing there job’s well Corp was about all i had in term’s in getting it done right.
Right now for 2010 Toyota is going to be faced with some issues with the new safety standard’s which now Include roof reinforcment provisions and did you know Toyota didn’t make the punch there. Toyota made a Legal statement to media claiming the test were unfair and they make the safest car’s and truck’s. Wile I feel Toyota was very aware on the new standard’s they didn’t go very much into detail’s on correcting or make any changes to the roof design’s. So now Toyota is claiming it’s unfair which in my opinion they have no ground’s for such a claim in the first place. I like Toyota don’t get me wrong but let’s look at the real picture vs putting the blame on someone else.
Joshua Said in December 28th, 2009 @10:01 am Federal Trade Commission has all the info on the Lemon Law along with your state. MK you said it
I think it’s clear that most people believe Toyota is hiding safety flaws, but there’s an old saying that I think is very applicable here: “Never attribute to malice that which can be easily explained by stupidity.” In my mind, it means that people aren’t trying to do evil things…they’re just not thinking. I would imagine that big companies like Toyota are naturally slow to act and bureaucratic in nature, so I don’t think Toyota’s failure to act is indicative of a desire to hide something.
Erik, I’m really not too concerned about roof reinforcement standards. I’d be more worried about the components that make your vehicle safe day in and day out like brakes/engine components failing prematurely that shouldn’t. Sometimes I think these safety standards they require nowadays is a bunch of boloney. All mfgs. should get back to the basics of building a reliable vehicle that will last with parts lasting like they should back in the old days. I cannot tell you how many times I have taken my vehicles back whether Toyota or GM, doesn’t matter, into the repair shop under warranty for squeaks and rattles and broken or misfitting plastic parts due to inferior cheap plastic panels or plastic clips that are broke and do not hold as well as sheet metal screws would. For example, I wasted 2 whole days in the shop on my new 2010 tundra and after several hours of wasted time each day sitting at the shop, the toyota dealer diagnosed the knocking noise coming from the passenger door panel/glove box area over small bumps in the road caused by the god darn plastic round push in clips holding the passenger side wheel well lining in place. They took the plastic push pins out, cleaned up the plastic housing, and re-hammered the plastic clips back in place with a rubber mallet and the noise was gone for awhile. Now, I am getting a very similar noise after 1 month of driving it back from the shop in the same area. I still think the noise is either from the door panel or glove box area or behind it, but who is to say it is not the dang plastic push in clips in the wheel wells again knocking and transmitting thru the glove box/door area. What they did 100% silenced the noise after rehammering in the push in clips in the wheel well, but now it is back again after only 1 month. Very annoying-get back to using sheet metal screws to hold parts in place. Basic, simple idea, but yet again, cheap components like plastic push in clips do not do the job and idiot engineers who design and mfg. these components have no idea what works properly.
mk – There’s an expression in the repair business – “if the people who designed these things had to fix them, they would build them a lot differently”
Jason In a since if they built them right the first time you wouldn’t have the problems in the first place. Toyota takes design flaw’s a little differently and yes they have too with the plublic watching there every move. The 2nd Gen Tundra Cam shaft issues or tailgates on the Tundra certainly didn’t help.
Problem really has to be understood from the corp eye. Usually Product’s are rushed out the door and Not enought time is spent on the product to really gain any understanding to what is going on. Yes Toyota does spend’s year’s designing new product’s and does some extensive road test but once it leaves the showroom floor the real world testing starts up. Toyota’s suppliers really are key to this business and with that stated I surely hope Toyota lead’s by example. Mk mentioned the Interiors on the 2nd gen are cheap and frankly I agree there. Toyota did a poor job on materials and the overall fit and finish isn’t up the Lexus standards they pride themselves on from the first gen.
Yea complaints are very much there and we can all find fault with anything out there to be very honest but hell were the buyer’s so our opinions speaks out for what Toyota need’s to adress.
Good way to say it Erik, but will Toyota listen to us consumers is the key to their success or failure? I have found in my past experiences that the mfgs. do NOT listen to our complaints and do everything they can to fix the issues still present. Unfortunately, the next step is to play hardball with them.
They have to listen to dealerships. They are the major players in selling the vehicles. Get there attention by putting your own billboard in the back of your truck stating your dipleasures with that dealership/manufacturer. Attention like that will get someone to move on the issues. Erik I think the tailgate was a bigger issue than the camshaft. They didn’t hit the consumers yet but they even fired the guy who was making them wrong. They places manufacturer’s get parts can make or break a company. Take this for an example “Space Shuttle” made by the cheapest parts and lowest bidder. Imagine that.
This is my Take on the 2nd Gen Tundra first of all everybody that makes this truck has some general input on it’s future. The 2nd gen was made in two places for 2007 ( Priceton and San Antonio ) . The supplier’s were breaking ground in Texas and Toyota had pre existing part’s content all over the Usa and Japen with a vast majority of the parts being made in the Usa.
Wile I am very key to thing’s being Made in the Usa I don’t feel the choice of material’s and the overall design on the interior was a good choice for Toyota Motor Sales. Toyota need’s to fire the guy in charge of the 2nd gen interior and find someone else for the 3rd gen which is expected in 2013 or 2014. Speaking about the Current Tundra it was down right a shame to have tailgate that break and bed’s that shake but then again flaw’s are going to be tested in the real world like i stated. Toyota didn’t invent the Pickup truck segment they just redefined a segment on feature’s and improve on them similar to what Chrysler did on there Minivan’s.
Does Toyota listen to it’s target Customer’s I have to say honestly that is going to be a mixed review on who you discuss it with. Toyota does listen to focus groups and a Vast majority of the features found in your 2nd gen Tundra came from owner’s like me from the first gen who made suggestions to making it a better truck. I am a Loyal buyer but in term’s of my Opinions I think Toyota needs to rethink it’s Logic on taking on the big 3 in truck sales it’s not going to happen mass producting something with negitive press to boot.
I think there are some really good opinions here, especially with regard to the way that Toyota should react to and correct problems. I think that, all things being equal, quality concerns can be addressed by improving a vehicle’s warranty and taking responsibility for items that are broken. Unfortunately, Toyota doesn’t have great warranty when compared to their competitors, nor do they seem to want to take responsibility for problems (big or small). Until that changes, Toyota is facing an uphill battle to gain market share in the truck market.
If anyone has any issues with your Tundra blame Erik, after all they ask owners like him how to make them better. Erik would it be to much to have a good frame, oil that is not contaminated, better paint quality, thicker sheetmetal, better stereo, overall quality, and anything else that I have left out. Since they ask owners like you, why didn’t you ask for these things to be fixed in the first place. So it isn’t Toyota’s fault, its owners like Erik. Oh one more thing Erik as Jason said their warranty sucks, could you do something about that???
So your saying were pickey or find fault excuss me? I don’t see it that way Judged from your remark you know about every flaw on the Tundra Lineup. Owning a Toyota and I have 3 within my household doesn’t mean I have stock options in the company nor does it Mean I am 100 percent vested to everything Toyota does but yea I’ve had certain issues and they take care of repeats buyers like myself.
Let’s put it this way for a Company to lower it’s content standards from which it was judged from the past something isn’t right now.This Currently Gen doesn’t measure up to Toyota refinement from the Past decade and many repeat buyers like myself have noted certain drawback’s. There are many out there who state similar claims so my opinion is just that.
Toyota warranty does somewhat suffer right now I agree but This isn’t a Kia with it’s 100k warranty or a Gm for that madder. Sure Toyota can step up to the plate and offer a 100k warranty but it comes with a price tag or just buy a factory extended warrant like i do. Overall Toyota power train claims might be lower then say a Gm Truck but things do wear.
Toyota coverages are the following:
Basic 36 months/36,000 miles (all components other than normal wear and maintenance items).
Powertrain 60 months/60,000 miles (engine, transmission/transaxle, front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, seatbelts and airbags).
Rust-Through 60 months/unlimited miles (corrosion perforation of sheet metal).
Che get off Erik’s case. Like he said you only mention the flaws you heard of. You don’t own one so why come here and insult a consumer? He has the right just like you do. You don’t like a Toyota then by all means find another website.
Mickey I admire someone who doesn’t take reason to fully understand other people viewpoints it’s somewhat expected in everyday Society now. To some extend I listen to those people but If they don’t understand my viewpoints that’s fine with me. It’s not hurting me at all and I don’t cry over it I just Move Forward Like Toyota quote “Moving Forward”
Happy new year Mickey
Erik (Tundrav8yamaha)
Erik, Che25 hit it on the head! Did you or did you not write the following “Toyota does listen to focus groups and a Vast majority of the features found in your 2nd gen Tundra came from owner
Anonymous,
I stated Toyota listen’s to it customers somewhat and this topic is going to get differents aneswers from whom you speak with. Toyota does listen to it’s customers in the way it handles Focus group’s and the 2nd generation Tundra is a prime example on that. I’m not sure if your aware about the 2nd Generation when it was released to the General Plublic at Detriot (crewmax) but I was there at Detriot listening to everything stated about this truck from Toyota Motor sales . I didn’t design it but I have about as much input on the suggestions to improve it and anybody else.Toyota did ask my suggestions on improvements on the 2nd gen before it came out.From my source @ Toyota they listens to it target customers but don’t expect them to take everything into account.
About your reply I can careless about reading into your misleading claim’s like you have presently and they have no barring at all (period). You need to ask before jumping conclusions and twisting the Information I posted.
This is my take at present if you require anything else please feel free to ask.
Erik don’t take anonymous seriously. That’s why he stays anonynmous. Yes they did take previous truck owners answers to there surveys. They took what the majority wanted and went from there. Don’t expect anonymous to believe anything here. He proved himself over and over to be nothing more than a troll just giving Toyota owners a hard time. At least you put the one thing he can’t say different. You went to the auto show and heard about it. He didn’t so he has to play his game of catch-up and just feed the B/S to everyone here when at hand he doesn’t own one but he can tell you all about one.
Erik I forgot I bet Che is his brother. Got to watch his back.
Mickey Yes I did Attend the Detriot show for 2007 my reports were on Ts.com when the Crewmax came out and I broke the news there so I rest my claim there.
Anonymous comments are hard to take seriously…
This is so stupid its funny. I agree with Jason, but neither are the articles posted to be taken seriously. More comical than anything else. Erik, you went to the Detroit auto show. You realize some random people where stopped and asked to look and drive the Tundra before release to get feed back. They paid us $30 for a hour of our time. Toyota had teams that went cross country to get peoples response. So now we are experts and can write a article?
Does anyone know how many people are auto reviewers and write articles now that the internet is up. They are self proclaimed experts. So who are the experts and who are not?
The problem is Just because I went to the Detriot show doesn’t mean I am some proclaimed expert on everything Toyota does .The same applies with everybody who was given the Ride and drive. Fact is i was given the oppunitity to see the Newly released Tundra crewmax(detriot) and Double cab (chicago) .I attended both event because I have a huge intrest in the product and been a repeat buyer for a long time.
Yea your right the internet has soo many website that focus on reviews pretty much all is loosed and some degree on the findings differ on who does the reporting style. The day’s on reading car and driver and Motor tread have been replaced to the Internet fourms and product reviews online. Sure I read all that stuff too but the day’s when I opened my mailbox looking for a copy of Motor trend is long gone.
Ditto on Motor Trend and Consumer Reports.
[…] Of course, even newspapers reported that Toyota knew about problems and never ackonowledged them. […]