Runaway Toyota Accidents Almost Always Driver Error
Jason Lancaster | Feb 15, 2010 | Comments 60
When the L.A. Slimes L.A. Times asked Richard Schmidt, a noted automotive safety expert, about unintended acceleration back in November 09′, here’s what he had to say:
…the problem almost always lies with drivers who step on the wrong pedal. “When the driver says they have their foot on the brake, they are just plain wrong,” Schmidt said. “The human motor system is not perfect, and it doesn’t always do what it is told.”
It’s really popular right now to say that Toyota’s electronic throttle system is somehow responsible for unintended acceleration accidents, but the data shows that most runaway accidents are simply driver error. We’ve all seen and heard stories of runaway Toyota vehicles, but consider this:
- People have a natural tendency to panic in an emergency.
- In a panic situation, it’s easy to imagine a person pressing the accelerator while intending to press the brake.
- A noted safety expert says this is often exactly what happens.
- Not one investigation – not one – has shown that a Toyota vehicle was responsible for a crash. At best, they’ve been inconclusive.
Yet despite these facts, pundits and wanna-be investigative reporters continue to harp on problems with Toyota’s throttle system. The only “fact” these people can point to is a statistical correlation between an increase in unintended acceleration complaints and the debut of the electronic throttle control system. However, a correlation by itself is meaningless.
Correlation vs Causation – Logic 101
FACT: Overweight men are more likely to survive a car crash than underweight men. This is a correlation – two dissimilar pieces of data that merge in a perhaps meaningful way. So, what’s the cause of this correlation?
Possible explanations for this correlation include:
- Overweight men have more “cushioning” in a crash.
- Underweight men aren’t sturdy enough to survive extreme physical trauma.
- Overweight men are healthier.
- Underweight men drive smaller and less crash-worthy cars than overweight men.
- Overweight men drive slower than underweight men, because underweight men are always hungry (and therefore cranky).
In the absence of supporting data, any one of the causes above could explain the correlation between weight and car crash fatalities…and absent any supporting data, any one of these explanations is plausible.
This is the rub – a correlation by itself is meaningless without additional data.
When the L.A. Slimes and others insinuate that Toyota has a throttle problem simply on the basis of a correlation, they do us all a disservice. Driver error is the most likely explanation, and until someone produces evidence to the contrary, there’s no reason to believe any differently.
Comments?
Filed Under: Auto News
This is hilarious, its official Toyota owners don’t know how to drive. They should have their own lane. Maybe instead of parking assist sonar sensors, we need Toyota sensors. It would sound with “idiot alert”. How about a bumper sticker that says “Toyota must stay 1/4 mile back”. LMAO
How about I drive over top of what ever it might be that your driving you most likely cant afford to drive a toyota
Anon, could you be any dumber?
Well sorry Jeremy, but I must partly agree with Anonymous on this one. So this unintended acceleration has spiked with Toyota since 1999. If the car isn’t the problem (as so many want to believe) and people want to blame the driver, then guess what, there is only one conclusion. A lot of Toyota drivers are either getting worse, dumber or simply do not know how to drive. Could it possibly be two fold. With the increase of bad drivers (I see them every day in every make/model), and the the unintended acceleration problem, this has caused the spike?
Good job Jeremy!
What the heck r u guys saying. There isnt any scientific data to support either claim. This is nothing but a war of words based on emotions. The only thing said here that makes since is that every make of car has its share of bad drivers. Calling Toyota drivers idiots is nothing short than acting like a child.
Oh so it just happens to drivers in Toyota’s, not in Honda or Ford how about a Kia, deawoo, GM, Fiat? No it seems to be with Toyota’s. So my assumption is that maybe it is NOT the driver and the machine. Kinda make sense? I mean its just a educated guess that if it is not happening at the rate of which it is with Toyota it is either the machine or the drivers are down right morons. Now with this said, don’t think its the drivers due to the fact it happens to Toyota owners. Seems kinda odd doesn’t it??? If it is the driver then god help us cause they all seem to own Toyota’s.
Anonmymous:
where is the data saying they looked at Honda, Ford, GM for the same problem??? Right now anything involving a Toyota is getting looked into more so then the “others.” Use your head thats what its there for….
Bryce, Jeremy, and Rich No use in trying to talk to a fool in anonymous. He knows exactly what was said an meant by it. He’s playing the dipshit role and he’s proven himself over and over again. Let the fool hang himself. We know that this happens to alot of vehicles with mid to younger drivers. SImply put there anonymous like you they won’t tell the truth. In the older generation they will admit to their fault because they believe in the truth. Justin you really suprise me with your remarks and what you agree upon. It seems you are on the bandwagon also. You USE to be bias but I don’t see that no more.
Its simple. Where is the recall for other manufactures?? There is not one due to the fact they are not crashing at the rate of Toyota. Mickey I’m impressed, you didn’t go on a rant about the Thunderbird, Chevy or anything. Good job! See Jeremy can see through the BS one day you will too and then we will listen to stories involving Mickeys Tundra issues, only a matter of time! Can’t wait! 🙁
Anonymous how long do you plan on being stupid? Your manufacturer’s have the recalls and TSB’s also but you just don’t want to look. I don’t blame you. No I won’t be able to succumb to your idea’s there anonymous. I could rant on how dumb some of the Ford service advisers were on the T-bird but I let that alone. You seen all the TSB’s and Recalls on all vehicles I had period. I did the same for those as I’m doing the same here. Much less what I can say for you. You’re a loser and you try hard to bring people down to you. I know misery wants company and you can keep trying but you only keep proving yourself. I already wrote in posts about the 4 issues I had. So read and find it. 3 of the 4 issues were caused by me, and the 4th was caused by someone else. Unlike yourself I did admit what I did. Do you admit when you’re wrong? Nope! So go on your crazy horse again and tell us how well your vehicle is going. You’re so good at admitting Toyota downfalls all the time but you fail as usual to tell about your wonderful vehicle you got. I know we all know how good Schwinn is but we don’t consider that an automobile.
I see the “mob” rule and “peer” pressure mentality continues. It’s now hip to be a square and cool to bash Toyota. Everyone else is saying it so it must be true. I’ve always heard from Ford owners that Chevy sucks (and vise versa) so it must be true that both suck. I hear it all the time so it must be true just due to the constant numbers of people saying it. We don’t need any stinkin’ facts. The TV said it’s true so i’ll be a mindless nub following the blind sheep to slaughter. Since we have concluded that Toyota drivers can’t drive, i have also concluded that Ford drivers need to quit using their floorboard as an ashtray and stop burning those Fords to the ground and quit blaming the cruise control units for the fires. We have to also conclude that GM owners can’t drive either because I’ve had several GM producted recalled for unintended acceleration too.
Now let’s be for real;
Every car manufacturer has had recalls for one thing or another and for dangerous and non-dangerous issues. No one can say that a particular manufacturer is spotless in safety.
Does Toyota have a bigger problem or a real problem… a strong maybe, but there is no facts, yet.
The NHTSB has stated that there has been an increase in complaints against Toyota since the recall was announced. They aslo said that some cases might fall into the investigation but many people also try to use the new recall to cover accidents that they were actually at fault and blame Toyota instead. They said this is common when any recall is announced, no matter who the manufacturer is.
The media is supose to report facts without their own opinions. The opinions should be the reader’s interpertation.
Decide what you will. It’s your dime anywho.
I get it so what Jason is saying is Toyota does not know what they are doing. So anonymous you are wrong. Apparently the part is not the issue, for some reason Toyota is just throwing money and getting bad publicity in return for nothing. It is the drivers fault. But here is where I agree with anonymous why is it just happening in Toyota’s? Not one is issueing recalls for anyone else? No talk of any other brand having any issue. So there really a issue or have Toyota owners forgotten how to drive, never knew how to drive, or all just a bunch off liars when they are in a accident like Mickey said. I vote all the above, don’t know how to drive, have a issue with the assembly, and are liars. There not being bias just covering all the bases! Or mybe just all the older generation is driving having altimers set in behind the wheel? It doesn’t matter it is happening and seems to be in Toyota’s. No one else seems to have any issues. Its the finger pointing game. Could someone call Toyota and tell them that the recall is all for nothing, its the drivers fault according to Mickey, Richard Schmidt, LA TIMES and Jason. It was all a big misunderstanding and their engineers don’t know a thing!
Mickey: Not on the bandwagon, but must play the fence. I have admitted, many times it most likely was the driver in certain cases. But I also must admit there are cases out there where it most likely was the vehicle. We don’t have percentages either way, or hard evidence that proves either the driver or the vehicle was at fault.
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But this we do know. Toyota has found a problem in the pedal and floor mats that could cause this. They have recalled many vehicles to fix the problem. We also know there were reports closed by the NHTSA in the past on unintended acceleration. We also know now that Toyota and the NHTSA decided to investigate only those occurrences of 1 second or less. There is clearly a problem with these vehicles, whether it is a floor mat, pedal or the electronic throttle. To deny a problem or to blame it soley on the driver is irresponsible.
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This article tells us we’re supposed to take the word of Richard Schmidt (quoted in article), but not the word of Thomas Ritter who has a mechanical engineering degree and spent 15 years as an engineer at General Motors, Chrysler and other auto and truck makers as well as 25 years designing oil exploration equipment, who believes Toyota’s acceleration problem lies in the electronics. So this entire article posted here is meaningless to me and simply cherry picked the LA Times article for the pieces that backed its opinion. Also, it’s nice to see this site quoting the LA Times after calling them practically classless (Slimes), manipulating the facts and what not. Somehow it’s okay to use them as a source when it proves your point or makes you look good, but they are not a reputable source when posting negative remarks? Come on guys.
Kate look up the statistics on the accelrator issue not just what the media pu out before you speak. You will see it has happened to other makers. Also in some cases more than Toyota. You believe what you want and be gullable. That’s your decision. Kate prime example in what Jason put out. The Tundra in Baton Rouge hits pole in dealership at the front entrance. He was leaving and how do you hit a pole if it wasn’t intentional? Next you tell me well maybe his pedal stuck…. Well why did he hit his passenger side vice the driver’s side? You remember these vehicles have this thing call a computer which remembers what you’re doing….. Kind of a give away….
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Justin have you ever been to court? Each side has a top notch person who can validate what they claim. The same goes to those engineers from MIT who tried to help Toyota find the issue. By the way when was this 15 years with GM? I’m not sure when the oil exploration came in before or after. If it’s after Justin then that tells you right there.
Mickey: This person I referenced (Thomas Ritter) is in the same LA Times article that Jason and the above article references (page #3).
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How about the following piece from the same LA Times article:
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“What’s more, said Huei Peng, a mechanical engineering professor at the University of Michigan and a specialist in vehicle control systems, many of the kinds of electronic errors that a modern car is susceptible to are not detectable by the car’s fault detection system.
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“When there’s no error code, it doesn’t mean there’s no error,” Peng said.
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Despite the potential risks associated with electronic systems, NHTSA’s own reports indicate it often does not test them while investigating unintended acceleration.
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In a 2005 probe of Lexus ES vehicles, NHTSA reported that its investigator reviewed two vehicles that had allegedly surged out of control, but that “no interrogation or communication with the electronic systems was performed” before giving them a clean bill of health.”
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So truly there could be an electrical issue with these vehicles that have never been tested for.
Interesting stuff. I’d post a link, but the one I did (posted 2/13) which had this article, hasn’t yet been approved by Jason. But look it up, we all have the net. Just another thing that makes you go, hmmm.
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Toyota Said To Have Staved Off Inquiries By Hiring NHTSA Officials.
Bloomberg News (2/12) reports that according to “court and government records,” NHTSA regulators recruited away by Toyota “helped end at least four U.S. investigations of unintended acceleration” in Toyota vehicles. “Christopher Tinto, vice president of regulatory affairs in Toyota’s Washington office, and Christopher Santucci, who works for Tinto, helped persuade the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to end probes including those of 2002-2003 Toyota Camrys and Solaras, court documents show. Both men joined Toyota directly from NHTSA.” The piece adds that Toyota “may be alone among the major companies” in recruiting NHTSA officials to serve as liaisons to the agency. “Possible links between Toyota and NHTSA may fuel mounting criticism of their handling of defects in Toyota and Lexus models” linked to highway fatalities.
Justin there’s no question that unintended acceleration is a serious problem that needs to be fixed. But a little perspective is in order. As Popular Mechanics automotive editor Larry Webster has pointed out, every major carmaker receives occasional reports of sudden unintended acceleration (SUA). In the last decade, the National Highway Transportation Safety Agency logged some 24,000 SUA complaints. Less than 50 of these red flags were investigated. Why so few? The main reason is the nebulous nature of SUA. Often the problem occurs once, never to happen again. It’s tough to fix a defect that can’t be replicated. And then there’s the driver variable. As awful as this is to think about, it’s been shown that sometimes drivers simply mix up which pedal they’re pushing. In the late 1980s, the Audi 5000 was the target of a barrage of SUA allegations, lawsuits and press reports (including a notorious “60 Minutes” episode that was later discredited). Then, as now, there were accusations that mysterious electronic gremlins somehow took over the car. In the end, NHTSA concluded that driver error was the only likely explanation for the incidents.
Laos here’s another one for good reading nothing more.
http://www.popularmechanics.co.....45385.html
Driver error mechanical malfunction. It all relates to one thing Toyota. Is that or is that not what we are talking about? Everyone talks about stats and averages well produce factual information. Justin hit it right on the head, flip-floping, oh I wanna discredit this source for my benefit but use it latter when they say something good. It is not right.
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Danny didn’t Toyota bring this upon them selves? The truck that is changing everything, what real truckers want? The stupid commercials and owner videos. How many people jumped on the bandwagon when Toyota produced a truck with the most torque and power that any other regular truck? It is a fad and with all fad they end. Now all the fair weather fans are jumping ship and bashing because others are doing it better. Toyota made the commercials and ads so they brought it upon themselves!
This link: Indicates issues with sudden acceleration in the Prius during “cruise control”. It is interesting to note Steve Wozniak, the co-founder of Apple, is mentioned in this article as having this problem-meaning this isn’t about some little guy/gal looking for money or attention. The article hints at a software issue which makes sense when one considers how complex the automobiles have become. It is unacceptable for Toyota or any auto maker not to have software that makes the brake override the throttle when both send messages.
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/.....tml?hpt=T2
I still feel the tundra has the best engine, tranny, interior, exterior, looks, and brakes in the business of 1/2 ton trucks. that is all that matters to me. Could care less if my gas pedal sticks or corolla sticks since 99.9% sure it will never happen. I’m not worried since I know how to drive whether it be a toyota or chevy, etc. Anybody that tells me different I could care less because I know I am right – ha ha!
It seems to me that any accident that happens with a toyota vehicle included in this recall can now be blamed on a sticky pedal. Why else would there be a sudden increase in such incedents in only a weeks time. (see link below) If someone has a stupid accident, it is a great way to save face to say that it was the result of a pedal problem rather than to just go ahead and admit that you were driving with your knee while holding a hamburger with one hand and texting with the other.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/201....._recall_us
Mickey you hit the issue right on the head, if you can’t dupilcate the problem then how do you pinpoint the problem. The NHTSA isn’t going to invest any money investiagting this now that Toyota has issued the recall. But you can bet the insurance companies have the best experts on this one. I guess the question I want to know is why can’t the insurance companies find the evidence. Better yet why can’t anyone find any evidence to prove this to be a mechenical or electrical malfunction. Kate without a doubt you dislike Toyotas, and you may have good reasons for it. But there’s more to this than Toyota admitting they needed a recall. Politics play into big business, I’m sure Toyota was forced to make the “voluntary recall” for an assortment of political issues. BTW I tow 9,000 Lbs behind my Tundra, and I’m here to tell ya it isn’t a fad. Functionally, this truck is the best half-ton on the market!
Two words. MAss Hysteria
Kate, what does the stupid Toyota commercials have to do with any of this?? Since you brought us here, GM was the 1st to always state, “the most hp, torque and mpg in its class” while aiming at Ford and Dodge. At this jucnture, Toyota was still with the 1st gereration Tundra, which the big 3 didn’t consider a threat to their truck dynasty. Then, Tundra Gereration 2 came out and all of a sudden the Ford commercials and Chevy Commercials are aiming at Toyota. Hmmmm, a threat on the horizon. BTW, what does “Like a Rock” mean anyway. Sinks like a rock, dumb as a rock, etc, etc. Furthermore, “Built Ford Tough”, tough compared to what?… 3-ply commercial toilet paper???
The 5.7L is one bad motor but not for everyone. I have the 4.6L and i’m perfectly happy with it. It’s also kinda funny that GM, Ford and Dodge is now introducing more powerful blocks to keep up.
I wasn’t bashing the big 3, i was pointing out that people make decisions without doing their own research, that they believe everything they hear and the media has its bias. If you believe the liberal media had an influence on the presidential election, then you have to also believe that the leftwing media could possibly be a player in this too. Heck, even this site is biased toward Toyota, so everyone is biased and you the reader have to make your own decisions.
I also never said that Toyota did not have a problem and if you have ever read any of my other postings, i never said that the media should not be a consumer advocate. All i’m saying is, present the facts and the facts only, just like joe friday.
Also, if you have ever read any of my previous post, I have been a life long GM fan until recently. I still own an 08 HHR and a 86 Buick Grand National. I also said that the Sierra/Silverado want the reason i chose a Tundra, it was the constant bs from the salepeople and dealers. The final straw with them was when i went to look a GMC extended cab. Couldn’t find a salesperson, then when i did, he said “and what do you want!”. When i told him i wanted to look a certain truck, he expected me to go get the stock number off the truck, then he couldn’t find the freaking keys. I drove 1 mile down the highway and bought a Tundra. I would love to have a new Z-71 but i’m not willing to put up with their crap. Our lil’ HHr has been in the shop 14 times in 16 months and is scheduled to go back in this week. We love the car, when it’s not in the shop or leaving me stranded on the highway (complete ecm failure at 8k miles). Everytime its been in the shop i have to wait for them to do the repairs since they cant seem to ever come up with a loaner. When I took our carmy and tundra in for the recall, a loaner was provided. When i scheduled Toyota to put running boards on my truck, they came and got it. We live 28 miles from the GM and Toyota dealership. Now that’s service. When our HHR died on the highway, our dealership went ballistic because it was towed to a different dealer, which was chosen by chevy roadside assistance not me.
Oh, and back to the “fad” statement, trucks are meant to pull, so torque is very important. Furthermore, if its a fad, then we’re waiting for the fall on the Camaro, Corvette, Challenger, Mustang and every truck on the market. If you’re buying a truck and not considering hp and tq, then you’re just using it to pickup your dry cleaning and groceries and don’t have a real need for a truck anywho. Just my 2 cents.
Peace and Respect.
Danny, I’d dump that HHR with all the issues you have had. Like what I know, the tundra has the best tranny and engine vs. any other 1/2 ton truck on the market bar none, no questions asked. Enough said.
Lots of great comments here, pro and con. Here goes:
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Anonymous – That is one possible explanation, isn’t it? I suppose that when you have the best selling cars in the world, idiots are bound to buy a few of them.
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Justin – Your first comment is failed logic. If it’s not A or B, then it MUST be C…why? What about D-Z? Just like there’s no data to support the allegations that Toyota has a throttle problem, there’s no data to support or dismiss the idea that Toyota drivers are dumber than average, that Toyotas are more effected by gravity than other brands, that Toyota drivers are being sabotaged by aliens…without data, any one of those explanations is plausible. If you can put that data together, then you can make a case…but not until then.
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Rich, Bryce, and Mickey – Thank you.
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Danny – Great points.
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Kate – First of all, “almost always” and “always” are different. I’m not saying that these issues are ALWAYS driver error – Toyota doesn’t seem to think so either, because they’re taking care of pedals and floor mats right now. I agree that older drivers are a factor – Toyota has the oldest owner base of any manufacturer – but I don’t have data (that’s just my opinion).
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Justin – First of all, my apologies for taking so long to approve your comments. My real job was on overload this weekend.
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I think you fell into the same trap that Kate did in regards to “always” vs. “almost always” – we’re saying the same thing. Most of the time, car accidents ARE driver error. As for the times when they aren’t driver error, Toyota says that floor mats and pedals are responsible…and NHTSA seems to agree based on their evidence and investigations. That should be good enough for all of us, but there are still rumblings that Toyota’s electronics are faulty. SO, here we are.
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Also, to say I’m cherry picking is a reach. The problem with the L.A. Slimes isn’t there ability to record a quote from a safety expert – the problem is their tabloid mentality. They do the whole “asking a question that sounds really bad” thing – i.e. Did Mickey Mouse choke Minny Mouse? – and then failing to produce a shred of evidence to support their “question.” The quotes you pulled in another comment prove as much. Peng says “just because there’s no error code, that doesn’t mean there’s no error,” – NO KIDDING? Sounds like common sense to me.
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The old “they never checked for error X” is a common trick used by “news” organization to try and assign blame. I bet investigators never checked for strong magnetic fields or the driver’s history of mental illness, either, and both of those things could easily be to blame.
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As for your comments that Toyota somehow manipulated NHTSA investigations behind the scenes, all the evidence seems to point in that direction. Count on me to publish something on that as we get closer to the congressional investigation. When all the “real” media people have forgotten and moved on to some celebrity scandal, I’ll be reading congressional transcripts.
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In regards to Prius cruise control – I don’t know. I’ve read that too. We’ll have to let Toyota and NHTSA investigate that and hope they find a resolution.
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Kate – Your second comment derailed this thing (good work). See my response to Justin’s accusations of cherry picking. Also, executives at Ford, GM, and Chrysler seem to take the Tundra seriously, so why don’t you?
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mk – I hear you.
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Matt – Yes! Absolutely right.
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Rich – Interesting points. Thanks for commenting.
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JD – Word.
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Danny – Good comments. Reluctantly, I must admit to being biased about quite a few things. I try to be fair, but no one is perfect. That’s why I try and bounce these ideas off a few people around me in the industry before publishing.
MK: Well, I do believe the Tundra most likely has the best current motor/tranny combo in a 1/2 ton currently. Then again I haven’t driven the new GM’s with their 6spd and the 6.2L yet, nor the 09+ Ram 5.7L Hemi. At worst, they are comperable. And of course Ford has their new 6.2L, which may make it to their 1/2 ton segment, but is currently only offered in the Raptor and the ’11 SuperDuties. Plus Ford has their new 5.0L coming soon to be dropped into the F150. Mustang specs have this motor pushing 412hp/395lb-ft. So with a truck tune, you’ll most likely seen those figures flip-flop to around 380-390hp/400-410lb-ft. Which is great power and comparable to the Tundra 5.7L, but with much less displacement and better mpgs. Now interior and exterior looks are subjective, and personally, dislike both on the Tundra.
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Rich: Who says they couldn’t have duplicated the issue? From articles posting information from government records (NHTSA), some investigations were closed without thorough investigation and none of their investigations looked into the electronics. Also, they (Toyota & NHTSA) decided to only investigate occurences of 1 second or less, limiting their scope of the issue. And there are other trucks out there that are more functional than the Tundra. But it’s all about what you like and want in a truck. You really can’t go wrong with any of the 1/2 tons on the market today.
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Danny: Ford was working on their 5.0L and 6.2L, both with higher hp/lb-ft estimates than the Tundra 5.7L, prior to the Gen II Tundra being released. So the Tundra wasn’t the reason, but it did increase the dedication to these projects. Otherwise, Ford & GM were looking into the 1/2 diesel market before Toyota, so could we say Toyota was copying them? It’s called competition. Every manufacturer wants the latest and greatest got to have technology. It makes for a win-win situation for us, the consumer. Latestly, the majority of owners these days, don’t use their trucks as trucks were intended. Too many people buy them for a status symbol or to have the biggest and baddest. From my experience, I have yet to see a Gen II Tundra used as a truck, except for one that is used by a local Toyota dealer to shuttle parts. Of course most people around here (CO), opt for a 3/4 & 1 ton with the diesel for their towing.
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Matt: After every recall, import or domestic, the number of accidents and incidents due to said problem increase. It’s not unique to Toyota. It’s two fold though. People who had the issue, now know why they had the problem and can report it without being called a liar. Or, people who were in an incident now feel they can get out of a ticket or receive some kind of settlement from their insurance or the auto manufacturer. So please don’t think this is occuring just because it’s Toyota.
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And per Matts link on all those that say every manufacturer has this issue. Yes they do, but based on information in that link, in 2008 Toyota was #1 with 176 reports, while Ford was #2 at 44. In 2009 Toyota again was #1 again with 130 and Ford was #2 with 14 reports. So Toyota had four times as many complaints in 2008 compared to #2 Ford. And Toyota had nearly 14 times the complaints in 2009 as .#2 Ford did. Also for 2009, they found 8 of the top 10 vehicles reported with this problem, were Toyota’s. Which tells you why the investigation is so heated and focused on Toyota. If it could simply be blamed on driver error, Toyotas reported incidents wouldn’t be so much higher than everyone else. But I bet most everyone here will disagree and say it’s some conspiracy against Toyota.
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Mickey: Ford service advisors are employeed by the dealer. I’ve found good dealerships and bad. Just like the people I know who own Toyota’s, they’ve found good dealers and bad ones. You can’t put one dealers service advisor above the entire Ford company, just like we couldn’t do the same for a Toyota service advisor.
Jason: So look at my last post, specifically this portion:
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In 2008 Toyota was #1 with 176 reports of unintended acceleration, while Ford was #2 at 44. In 2009 Toyota again was #1 with 130 and Ford was #2 with 14 reports. So Toyota had four times as many complaints in 2008 compared to #2 Ford. And Toyota had nearly 14 times the complaints in 2009 as #2 Ford did. Also for 2009, they found 8 of the top 10 vehicles reported with this problem, were Toyota’s.
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So either there is clearly a problem with the vehicles themselves, or there is a problem with their drivers. Possibly both. Oh wait, it’s gravity that caused 4x’s (2008) and 14x’s (2009) as many cars and their drivers to speed off. Sorry, I forgot.
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No worries or taking so long, I figured you had bigger fish to fry! But now, on the always vs almost always statment. Again I refer to the above stats. Are we saying that Toyota had 4 to 14 times as many incidents because of driver error? No factual data, but I can see a small fraction difference in driver error, but not 4 – 14 times difference.
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Based on NHTSA evidence and documentation, many investigations were closed prematurely or not thoroughly researched. So it’s hard to fully believe the NHTSA did their job, making their evidence extermely suspect. And could be why the NHTSA is reacting in the fashion they are, being caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
Justin – Good point about NHTSA and the possibility Toyota somehow corrupted their investigations/investigators. However, in regards to the 4-14 times difference, I think that could certainly be explained by floor mats and/or sticking throttles…and the existing data shows as much.
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By the way, I haven’t created this post yet, but Toyota hired a 3rd party called Exponent to test vehicles. Exponent went out and bought 6 Toyota vehicles (without Toyota knowing which 6 were purchased), ran dozens of tests, and couldn’t once find a problem with the electronic throttle.
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My point with this article is that, 90% of the time, drivers are to blame for this problem. As for the other 10% of the time, it certainly seems plausible that floor mats and stuck accelerators could be the cause (which is what investigations have found).
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At a minimum, it’s irresponsible for the L.A. Times to accuse Toyota’s electronic throttle system of having a problem when there isn’t a shred of evidence to support that accusation. Saying the electronic throttle is problematic is just as dumb as saying aliens are somehow involved – until there’s data that shows otherwise, it’s just a wild (and baseless) rant.
to MK;
i’m mixed about the HHR. It was bought to be used as a long distance cargo wagon and it serves this purpose well. Lots of space, rides good and great mpg (32 at 70 fully loaded).It’s also nice to drive at highway speed and handles well for a wagon. Unfortunately, I’d be upsidedown if i traded/sold it now. Most of my vehicles are expected to be long term high mileage vehicles before we even think about getting rid of them. We put 263k on our 15 year old GMC Z-71 and thgis was a great truck. Hardly ever in the shop for anything. We just bought a 2010 Tundra and we’re hoping to get great results with longevity, durability and reliability.
On the funny side, if i keep having things replaced on the HHR, i figure by the time the warantee is over, it will be a new car, parts wise anywho. HAHAHAHA.
to Jason;
i didn’t mean to say that you were totally biased with Toyota. Everybody has their bias from one degree to another. I’m glad that you have this site so that Toyota owners can air their views, good bad or indifferent. Heck, i even welcome the naysayers. Their comments for the most part is helpful and knowledgeable. Unfortunately…. some are just comical and counterproductive. But,without healthy debate, nothing can be gained.
to Justin:
i’m sure Ford and GM were working on the higher hp 5.7’s and 6.0L+ motors well before the gen2Tundras came out. The windsor351(ford) and the 350chevy has been around since the 1960’s (or earlier) and both are 5.7L blocks. Heck, in the 80’s, my buddies were easily getting 600ponies out of a 350, they just were not street legal. But my 2-fold point was, (1) hp and torque is not a fad and (2) Ford and GM changed their advertising campainghs when the Gen2 came out. They quit shooting at each other (more or less) and started shooting at a common enemy. This was also a response to Kate referringto the Stupid Toyota commercials. And yes, i thought those toyota commercials sucked too, but so does all of them.
PeAcEoUt!
Justin you bring up some good points. However I think you misinterpreted my points. Obviously when I said the Tundra was the best functional half-ton on the market it was strictly my opinion. Especially since I made no refrences to support the statement. However, when I question the ability to duplicate the issue, I know there are more entities than just the NHTSA and Toyota looking into this matter. The insurance companies and most or all partys that were involved in an accident want to be compensated. The list doesn’t end there, the media wants to find hard evidence to show fault, ect. Up to this point, nowhere have I’ve seen the evidence that duplicates the issue. I can’t say what the reasons are for the inflated complaints in your aforementioned comment, but I could probably come up with a few. Nevertheless, that is just speculative. Setting aside bias, if there is a problem I want the right fix to keep me and my family safe. Finally, Colorado is one of the most beautiful states in the country, and I agree, if your towing on a regular basis over those mountain ranges a diesel is a must! Here in Illinois, a good half-ton will do the job.
So many comments. Good….. Now to Justin I reserved my thoughts about Steve Wozniack. Cofounder of Apple who does software. What’s he complaining about? Toyota’s software…… Again reserve my thoughts on that. He maybe right or he maybe wrong. I heard about the Prius having accelerator problems but in the same time I heard that one incident was with the cruise control and it was raining. Okay what does raining have to do with this. Well hit a flooded part on the highway and see how your cruise control goes. Whether it’s rear wheel or front wheel driven the wheel being driven loses traction the cruise control goes out of whack. It spins the tire faster in trying to keep the speed you have it set at which in turn can make you lose control totally. This could have been that culprit that caused that accellerator issue. I wasn’t there so we are left to speculate period. You can see both sides. As I put out the people from MIT tried to duplicate the stuck pedal but couldn’t find it. As for the insurance companies well they need every dollar they can get back no matter how they get it. I can see State Farm going after anything they can get. They took an enormus hit here in Florida and moved out. Kate I don’t understand the issue you pushing out against Toyota. On the other post you go against what I wrote about TSB’s and Recalls of all the makers of the vehicles I had. I got it straight from the govt agency we have been talking about here NHTSA. Where else would you get the info? I get it from the horses mouth. As for the commercials I think they are all comical. You know as well as I these commercials are all geared to sell their product “Hence” these words “IN THEIR CLASS”. No one is in their class so how can anyone compete. Danny hit it right for GM “Like A Rock”. I for one still like GM but, like others mentioned here CUSTOMER SERVICE is what keeps you coming back. GM is the only truck I know that gives you REAL guages not C to H or anything else. You can’t be treated like dirt an expect to stay loyal to them. Kate do you want Toyota Customer Service call you and ask you if you, if you own another Toyota product? GM does!
Kate I could go into the same bashing on Ford and GM. I had bad deallings with customer service on both. Now for Justin I did have a perfect Service adviser at the Ford dealership I went to. I still remmebr his name. Mike Kaftka. He knew how to do empathy real good and to de-escalate an issue you may have. He left before I hit that wall at Ford. I found him again of all places but at the last Chevy dealership I went to before trading it in. One person can make a difference in how you react. Then you have GM’s factory Rep who accused me 3x of pulling down my headliner. What’s funny Kate is that the Factory rep named Steve waited till after he accused me 3x before he finally tried what I was telling him. Open and close the door after the headliner was fixed. Yes on the 4th time he opened the door it fell on him.
Danny – Thanks. No offense was taken. I think it’s fair to say that I have some bias to my thoughts and articles here. I try to get rid of it by incorporating others opinions, but at the end of the day we’re all a little biased one way or another (just as you say). Glad you like the site!
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Rich – Good point about insurance company investigations. They’re just about as non-biased as you can get, and they haven’t found any sort of proof. Like you, I want this issue to be resolved clearly and concretely. Here’s to hoping the new pedals, pedal shims, and floor mats did the trick.
First off, I love this site, and I love my Tundra. A big reason I bought it was the American Made aspect. I like F150’s also, but when the choices came down, I chose the Toyota. the ONLY rub I have, is that they didn’t give us the option for diesel (Unlike the Australian Market).
I’ve read about the bed bounce and all the other BS.
Here is my take on this with the accelerator.
The people in the Lexus in CA have been highly publicized. Comments like ” if an off-duty CHP cannot slow the car down, how could any normal person be expected to do it?” I respect police officers very much, but just because you are a law enforcement person, does not exactly mean you are the best driver.
I feel very sorry for the families of the victims of that crash. But if you’re going too fast to handle, Turn the damn key off. If you had time to make a phone call that got published everywhere from here to Bangladesh, you didn’t do everything that you could to stop the car. Was the phone call intended to find the answer from someone in a call center that is not actually in the mix of the situation? And since the car was destroyed in the process, the evidence was most likely compromised in the course of the accident. it might have been Wal-mart floormats improperly secured for all you know. What kind of shoes was the driver wearing (I don’t know how women could even possibly expect to be able to drive WELL in high heels).
So this came to me when watching the news (Brian Philips reporting).
There was talk of how the recall is just punishing Toyota, and the fallout is incredible etc… Then it went on to show how Ford and GM’s sales numbers have increased since the recall stuff started happening. You know who the biggest owner of GM is right now? You and I! So it is in America’s best interest for GM to sell more cars. If Toyota is selling more, and you don’t have the time/resources to engineer a better vehicle, knock out your comptetition the old fashioned way; throw mud. Blow this thing up bigger than life. I also seem to recall reading somewhere that the supplier of these accelerators also supplies to Ford……
This is a media circus. Objective reporting is dead. EVERYONE has their opinion in the media. Sadly too many Americans are too stupid to think for themselves. I saw it on the TV/Internets/Newspaper/Blog, so it must be true!
How many times do you see your local newspaper “Backing” a particular political candidate or party? Doesn’t sound too impartial to me.
More “occurances” since the recall came out? Can’t handle the payments on your limited when you should have bought the base model? I know! My accelerator is causing me to drive an unsafe vehicle! They should give me a new one! Sadly it’s the American way; Somebody else needs to fix this problem; It’s not my fault; I deserve 4 million for the burn My hot coffee gave me. etc. Somehow people think they are entilted to more than just having the accelerator fixed and are going to bitch about it until they get more compensation or something.
Sorry for the rant.
Get some pride and love the country that allows us to write what we want, and do what we want.
But don’t blame others when you get into trouble with something that is your own doing because it is the easier way out.
Get rid of the Unions so GM and Ford can get back in the mix and have a fighting chance. Then maybe we wouldn’t have to outsource everything. (Why does Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyundai outsource stuff to be made here,and build new state of the art facilities and manufacturing plants HERE, but it’s too expensive to make things here for the US automakers?)
Pull your head out of your ass and think for yourself. Or somebody will do the thinking for you……..how do you think that will go over?
Chris: I agree, not all officers are good drivers, whether many people want to believe it or not. Also, the driver did not make the call, it was a rear seat passenger, I think the officers brother or brother-in-law. Lastly, turning off the key at those speeds would be unwise. You’d lose all power assistance in steering, and braking. Most likely the steering wheel would have locked up too! Best option is to shift it into neutral and apply the brakes.
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CTS does supply pedals to Ford, but only in one vehicle, a van of some sort that is only sold in China in limited quantities, I believe. Not one incident has been reported on these Ford vehicles with the CTS pedal, but Ford still recalled the vehicles right after Toyota announced their recall.
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On the media circus, it’s funny that people never say this stuff when it’s happening to a domestic. They simply say “typical Detroit”. I’ve used plenty of overblown Ford recalls in many other posts and threads, so I won’t reiterate my thoughts. Just will say, this same media scrutiny has occurred in the past, but import fans weren’t saying these things because it impacted domestics and not their vehicles.
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Agree 100% on ditching the UAW. Keep the employees, but oust the union.
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And people don’t think for themselves these days, that’s what the media is for. People anymore are sheep. Take everything they say with a grain of salt.
Justin-
It sounds like we are on the same page here.
The brain goes faster than I type sometimes….
I heard that Ford was doing some “recalling” of things supplied by CTS, but it was a much quieter thing than we have been about when compared to Toyota.
On more than one occasion I have fuel starved my engine in a hard turn during a drivers school, and lost all power. I was still able to maintain control relatively easily and get off the side of the track without incident.
Turning the key all the way off; not a good idea. Put it into acc. you will still have full steering capability without lockup. No power steering, but you will still be able to steer.
You will not lose all braking. you will lose power assist with the braking as this depends on the engine creating vacuum to help out.
I agree wholeheartedly about your methodology of Neutral, then key off, etc.
But. If the life of me or my family was in jeopardy in the slightest, and for some reason the power wasn’t disabled when I turned the key to Acc., I’d push the brake pedal to the floor as hard as I could and hold it there until I came to a stop.
The likelihood of
1. Putting the car in neutral not working, then
2. switching the key to acc. then
3. Pushing on the brakes as hard as you can,
and the car still does not stop? You’d have a better chance of being struck by lightning.
If you’re life is in danger, and it is because you are going too fast, you’re first instinct is to do exactly the opposite of what is creating the danger.
I heard the 911 phone call. and in the span of time the caller was on the phone, that car should have been able to come to a stop.
Manufacturers design their brakes to ALWAYS be more powerful than the engine. This is why they have “arbitrary” speed limiters on them.
For instance: BMW’s are generally electronically limited to 155mph.
At that speed, if you stand on the brakes and the gas at the same time, you will come to a complete stop before the brakes either fail, or fade due to excessive heat.
Sure there would be instances where if you have turned rotors or thin pads, you’ll have diminished capacity, but it will still happen.
Get an aftermarket chip which lifts the speed limiter, and you’re doing 180, then you may not be able to do the same test.
it’s a time distance relationship.
Bottom Line: Standing on the brakes will stop your car (Assuming it’s not modified and well kept)
The only exception to this is if you have a “Start” button. My wifes BMW has this, as well as some hybrids i think.
But, take some responsibility for your self and anyone who rides in your car!
I called my local BMW dealer to ask how I would put the car into ACC if an emergency arose with this type of system.
I tried it out in a parking lot.
But then again, my head isn’t COMPLETELY up my ass. Just a brown bandana….
Chris, Justin, great comments. Keep em’ coming! I agree with you both.
Chris my wife has a Prius with the start button. You just press and hold for 3 seconds and it shuts off. She kneew this because unlike myself and most she read her owners manual.
Wow, Toyota is really taking a beating.
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_14410175
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And seems like they can’t stop the bleeding either.
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_14422163
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Depending on how the investigation goes, whether they are fined or not, and how many more recalls are announced in the upcoming months/year, may determine how they are viewed in the eye of the public.
LOL, SO AMERICANS ARE STUPID? WELL ONLY IF THEY BOUGHT A TOYOTA!
Justin – It’s just ugly right now. Toyota’s biggest problem is that they’re SO SLOW. The Corolla thing was being talked about 2 months ago, but Toyota dragged their feet (like they always do) and now, because of all their other problems, it’s front-page news. When will Toyota’s management team learn that a “slow and steady” mentality – which might help them build great cars – is NOT the best way to win the P.R. battle? Toyota MUST give their regional subsidiaries more autonomy.
Jason: I hear ya! I believe taking the slow and easy path in fixing the issue is a good thing, in a sense. Want to make sure you find a proper solution and not just a band-aid. But sometimes it seems like some manufacturers do drag their feet. Similar to this F150 airbag investigation. We’re going on a few months, if not more now, but nothing has been recalled nor a TSB announced.
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And like you said, because Toyota is in the spotlight, these issues are simply getting more attention than they normal would.
are you guys gay?
Could get uglier for Toyota too, if their CEO doesn’t show for the Q&A session.
http://www.detroitnews.com/art.....redibility
Easyrider, you really are a dickhead aren’t you?
Can you read? If so, use the wheel thingy on your mouse,(it’s the thing you hold in your hand when you’re on the internets; no not that thing…..) and scroll up to the second sentence in my first post. That should answer your first post.
And seriously, are we gay? Are you still in middle school?
Do you even have a drivers license?
Or are you just bashing on Toyota while you’re waiting for your government bailout to show up in the mail while you’re dreaming of fixing up that clapped out pickup that’s been sitting in your families front yard on blocks for the last 8 or 9 years.
Grow up and go back and get your GED and come back to the party when you have at least some thought out opinions.
Easyrider we can read no need for caps….. Go get you some butane so you can be a flamer also…. Also Jason whether anyone wants to belive it or not now, the govt is showing they are on a hunt. The basically the same issue for GM in the steering column where the steering sticks on one of their models but do we hear about it? The slow path in fixing like what there doing stopping production to get it right is a good thing. Justin it looks like Ford and Firestone are at it again. Personally I believe all SUV’s are top heavy and they singled out Ford/Firestone on this. It’s not just limited to the one tire manufacturer. All SUV’s and really some Jeeps have the same issue about rollovers. Ford called out Firestone and made them recall their A/T tires so Firestone quit selling to Ford now.
easyrider – If that’s what you’re looking for, I’ve heard that there are lots of dating sites you can go to. Might be easier to meet somebody on one of those than here…
Here’s some light Jason…
http://www.thestar.com/busines.....te-recalls
Jason you now know there is an issue with unattended accelerated surge. Look at this
http://www.fordf150.net/forums.....38;t=82077
and here’s another
http://www.fordf150.net/forums.....38;t=80102
Mickey – Cool links – good find on the F150.
Jason it’s funny those are well kept secrets.
I always knew toyotas sucked. Thankfully now everone else is finding out. How many more people are you going to kill toyota? Sob Sob.
Mickey: I’m sure every make/model has this occur here and there. Heck, Ford is #2 on reports of unintended acceleration the last 2yrs, but most investigations have found the gas/brake pedals are simply to close together. Now my only item regarding the threads you posted, is questioning the validity of the posters. All posters on that f150.net site who have reported the problem, except one, have 5 or less posts to their name, and all joined the site since 2/9/10. Some speak to having the issue multiple times in roughly a year, but never posted about it prior or have never seen a dealer about said problem. Also, the thread refering to it reving and taking off in reverse, but the rpms drop when thrown into park, is suspicious. Not saying it didn’t happen, but many times on forums I’ve found people who report items as such, and never seem to post again, were either trolling or found the problem to be driver error. So I’m not trying to discount the issue on Fords, but I would like to see more posts and news articles before I solely believe it 100%.
Justin I didn’t believe the reverse one at all. I think that’s far stretched. Just like I don’t believe just Ford/Firestone issue. I seen where a Suburban rolled overseas using a goodyear tire that blew. So to me SUV’s are the issue.
Love my Tundra, but my petal did stick to the floor. Thank God I was on open road, checked mat, not the problem, tapped gas petal, wouldn’t release, tried to free petal with my hand, petal would not release. Brakes were no match to trucks acceleration,threw the trans. into neutral, hard braked, pulled off highway, turned off key. Petal released as soon as engine was shut off! Was able to drive home.
Dealer’s service manager, new complaint, that maybe I had my foot on the acclerator not the brake , there was recalls that had to be done and It would be taken care of immediatly.
Hopefully they fixed the Problem, Bill
Bill – If you had your foot on the wrong pedal, that would put you in very good company. As we have said all along, that’s what almost always happens. Considering the absence of evidence of a throttle problem – and the fact that the Tundra’s brakes are more than capable of stopping your truck at wide open throttle – I’d guess that it was indeed the wrong pedal. Glad to hear you resolved it safely, btw…a lot of drivers wouldn’t have had the smarts to shift into neutral and shut off the engine like you did.